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Post by joanlluch on Feb 13, 2015 22:38:58 GMT
Personally, I don't see any difference in buying a 3D Printed and cast brake valve to buying a cylinder casting. The logic for doing those things are the same. The game changer is that anyone can enter into this line of casting at a reasonable cost provided they are willing to learn 3D modelling. I can only see this improving the detailing of locomotives. There's no crime in buying a normal valve or injector, so I see no crime in buying a 3D printed and cast valve. Doubtless there will be cries of Foul! from some quarters, but who cares. What you're doing is the future, and they are the past. Roger, this is not the point IMO. In theory, a nyone can already download a free 3D CAD app, draw a 3D model, print it, and produce a casting. I can certainly do, and I already made an experiment by 3D printing my buffers. You can do it as well as soon as *tonight* if you want to. But as said that's not the point.
The point is that Adam is producing a complete catalog of first class parts for others to use. With a very complete and extensive catalogue of already done high quality parts at possibly affordable prices, it will be easier for anyone to build quite a decent and detailed model with far less effort than previously required.
What Adam attempts to do is to democratise the hobby. I am sure there may be a lot of people that would like to build their own locomotive but never did because of lack of skills, time or determination. We must be aware that we are a very reduced group of people with privileged skills or life conditions that allow us to spend time and money on this. We are exceptional in some sense. Others may not share any of this, and thus parts put on sale by Adam will greatly help them. Most average people does appreciate realism and high level of detail, so there enters Adam with his off-the-shelf parts. Finally, time will tell, but I think that some already in our "privileged" group will hate such "democratisation" as the catalogue becomes more and more extensive, which will tell a lot about the excellent work made by Adam.
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Post by Roger on Feb 13, 2015 23:38:25 GMT
If it's a choice between me modelling and CNC machining something, or having it 3D printed and cast, I'd probably still make it myself on the CNC, just for the pleasure on making it all here. It's all down to how much input you want to have to the actual creation of the final item in your own hands. A lot of these decisions are irrational and emotional, and that's fine. I'm making unions and nuts that I could buy, simply because I want to. If you want a superbly detailed locomotive though, it's hard to see how you can better the sort of castings you're making. I'm not really aiming at super scale accuracy, so I'm painting with a broader brush. If I was aiming for that, I wouldn't hesitate to follow your lead.
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Post by Cro on Feb 14, 2015 1:09:36 GMT
Between Roger and myself it comes down to personal preference and what we have available to us I guess. Roger has the equipment available to turn out beautifully CNC machined parts to brilliant levels of accuracy and I have the time around my Uni work to spend modelling items to later have produced in the form of castings to either supply as is or make up myself which is what I love doing. I have been drawn into the detail side of locos in the last 12 months and I now want to set out to make these sorts of things more available and a good, reliable, standard for what I consider a fair price. I don't know a huge amount about CNC machining but I think some of the bits I have done it would be extremely hard to replicate them on the machine without the casting especially with some of the internal porting bits and that's where these castings are fantastic. I have no issues with locos that have standard fittings and that are built as models but more and more these days people are using modern manufacturing to get a lot of their model right so why not support this work with the finishing touches of detailed castings. This is my 9f, it started life as a Winson kit, with some time and effort I have changed its appearance so much and added the detail to most people if I didn't tell them it was Winson they wouldn't know, other than the few things let to be done properly like the cladding it is almost finished - I may now go back and change some of the scale fittings to my own ones if I feel mine are better when they are done but in theory it is pretty representative of the full size.
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Post by runner42 on Feb 14, 2015 4:28:29 GMT
I would like to add that you should be selective in what parts you design and cast. It's a bit like the world car try to produce parts that have the greatest application so you have the greatest return on your investment. This may take some creative thinking since you are looking back in history so to speak where locomotive design were many and varied.
Brian
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Post by Doug on Feb 14, 2015 5:53:34 GMT
Wow I love the cab on your 9f its very atmospheric great work!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 8:09:43 GMT
Excellent: truthfully now more winsome than Winson! John
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Post by joanlluch on Feb 14, 2015 8:10:25 GMT
Adam, I do not belong to the super detailed world of classic model engineering but to my eyes your locomotive back plate and cabin is the finest I've ever seen.
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Post by Roger on Feb 14, 2015 8:25:47 GMT
That's a great model, I'd love to have built that.
On your question about how much of what you've made could have been accomplished by CNC, that's probably the wrong question. Much of it could be done, one way or another with multiple setups to get to every angle of it, but the amount of time it would take with tiny cutters would be huge. The main restrictions are the root radii of the features which determines the diameter of the cutter. If you try to combine that with those being at the bottom of a deep feature then the cutter not only has to be small in diameter but also very long. Some things are simply impossible because there's no way to reach those features to machine them.
The main point I'm making is that even if it's possible, it's not cost effective. I may well make some quite complex shapes as a one off, just to experiment and have the pleasure of doing it. What I won't be doing is offering any parts for sale. It's not a business opportunity like your method.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 16:53:38 GMT
That's a beautiful model you've building there Adam....love the detail....
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Post by Cro on Feb 14, 2015 17:09:14 GMT
Cheers guys, it took a lot of time studying photos to try get it right and its almost there, few finishing touches still to do to get it right but I am pleased so far. Will be adding a few bits from the castings I am doing which will help too. Brian I think you are right, there are definitely certain items that will go better than others and these will be what I focus my time on for now and then I will work on others as time allows or demand increases for them. Roger I totally understand what you mean but would be an interesting task to try machine some complex, smaller, items to see how the process is done and how it would turn out Back to CAD for the evening, just finishing the first machining drawing for the Cyl. Cock valve. Adam
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Post by Roger on Feb 14, 2015 19:01:13 GMT
Cheers guys, it took a lot of time studying photos to try get it right and its almost there, few finishing touches still to do to get it right but I am pleased so far. Will be adding a few bits from the castings I am doing which will help too. Brian I think you are right, there are definitely certain items that will go better than others and these will be what I focus my time on for now and then I will work on others as time allows or demand increases for them. Roger I totally understand what you mean but would be an interesting task to try machine some complex, smaller, items to see how the process is done and how it would turn out Back to CAD for the evening, just finishing the first machining drawing for the Cyl. Cock valve. Adam Watch this space, I'm sure to have a go at some. I'm doing a half way house effort on the piston valve crosshead on SPEEDY which is reasonably intricate.
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bhk
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 458
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Post by bhk on Feb 14, 2015 21:00:59 GMT
Having run CNC machinery and having seen some of these castings in person I can hand on heart say most of it is impossible in a CNC machine.
These casting both in Adams 3D modelling and Mikes printing and then the casting at the foundry are at a level most people will struggle to comprehend. In both finish and detail, casting a 0.5mm hole is quite something.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2015 21:15:00 GMT
Having run CNC machinery and having seen some of these castings in person I can hand on heart say most of it is impossible in a CNC machine. These casting both in Adams 3D modelling and Mikes printing and then the casting at the foundry are at a level most people will struggle to comprehend. In both finish and detail, casting a 0.5mm hole is quite something. I would agree with this although perhaps for different reasons as personally I don't know enough about CNC as to what it can and what it can not do...to me I see it as a tool that can do exactly what can be done by hand although quicker and in some cases perhaps more accurately especially when machining multiples and such shapes as curves etc. Where I do see it as less able and this goes for hand machined items too is when we are talking about items that are cast in real life, for me the miniature would also need to be cast , even if it may be a slightly larger scale in roughness terms. Not sure if that makes sense but hopefully some will get my drift... Pete
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Post by Roger on Feb 14, 2015 21:38:59 GMT
In reality, the two processes are utterly different in what they achieve. Precision casting won't compete with the accuracy of CNC, and CNC won't compete with the easy mass production of intricate shapes.
What's so special about this new process is that it enables things to be made that were virtually impossible to model before.
As Pete points out, a miniature cast item is the authentic and traditional way to make these items. I guess that gives the Luddites a bit of a problem...
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Post by andyhigham on Feb 14, 2015 21:45:54 GMT
The wax printing is just an updated version pattern making. I guess casting process will be the traditional lost wax process
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Post by Roger on Feb 14, 2015 22:58:02 GMT
The wax printing is just an updated version pattern making. I guess casting process will be the traditional lost wax process Ah yes, but will the Luddites consider the lost wax process as 'traditional', I don't think it was invented in the 1940's. I always thought it was conceived for the manufacture of jet turbine blades.
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Post by andyhigham on Feb 14, 2015 23:05:25 GMT
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Post by Cro on Feb 14, 2015 23:08:21 GMT
The wax printing is just an updated version pattern making. I guess casting process will be the traditional lost wax process Yes essentially what we are doing is producing the patterns but this way still allows us too add that extra level of detail that would take hours to model if done by hand or now is possible by CNC the only slight difference with some of what I am doing in the sense of "traditional lost wax process" I am skipping some of the initial steps by printing some items in wax that require internal porting and other complexities that you wouldn't be able to do when making the typical moulds.
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Post by Roger on Feb 15, 2015 8:22:04 GMT
Good grief, that really is an ancient process! You learn something every day.
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Post by alabaster on Feb 17, 2015 9:29:36 GMT
Winson did initially use cast fittings on it's very earliest models and then in its wisdom decided to CNC their own. Very blocky not very ornate.
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