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Post by joanlluch on Mar 13, 2015 7:48:02 GMT
hi joan, i make my buffer stocks and buffer heads out of scrap ive been given and it costs me nothing apart from the electricity to run the lathe! i am actually very interested in stainless 3D, and am aware that much more intricate castings can also be produced in stainless at the moment. i am not a complete 'luddite' so far as appreciating the advances in engineering, but my own budget and antiquated and basic workshop equipment and methods holds me back in the application! cheers, julian Hi Julian, Fair enough. Of course if you have a lathe is it far cheaper to produce machinable parts yourself. There's no doubt of that. My point was just an attempt to compare commercially available (traditional) services, such as manual lathe, milling or CNC, with direct 3D printing of parts. To investigate this I used a particular part that could be produced both ways and used the ShapeWays site to get quotations of direct 3D printing to metal.
I would have assumed that direct 3D metal printing would be very expensive, but it turned to be that prices were comparable or lower than traditional services for that particular part. If you consider more complicated or intricate parts, then 3D printing will turn to be very cheap in comparison. That's my single and only point.
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Post by 3405jimmy on Mar 13, 2015 7:49:46 GMT
Given enough resolution then yes, the thread will be made to standard ISO tolerances. Ed, does this mean that you have used or you use regularly 3D print technology to print METAL parts directly? One reported problem with shapeways is that they do not guarantee printing orientation, so some users get inconsistently layered parts, i.e not printed in the orientation they expected. That is a problem with them Joan and something I think Shapeways could improve on. I cannot remember if I posted this before but as you can see the recorder head on the right has not been printed in the same orientation as the left hand side and you can see the head move steps on it.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 13, 2015 8:00:45 GMT
I was wondering what additional facilities are required for 3D Printing?
I assume that the model is developed on a PC with 3D CAD software and then there is 3D Printer software to convert the 3D CAD file to something the 3D printer understands. If the connection is through a USB then existing PC hardware would be compatible. If you were replicating an existing part is there a 3D scanner that you can use to produce the file for 3D printing?
So if my assumptions are correct then one must be able to use 3D CAD software before you are able to undertake 3D printing. Another instance where I am falling behind in the use of technology.
Brian Hi Brian, Yes the model is first drawn in a 3D CAD using appropriate computer software. I use SolidEdge ST6 from Siemens, but this is on the high end of 3D CAD packages. There are also resources on line that allow you to produce simple 3D models, though I do not know much about them. Also a 3D model can be produced by 3D scanning, but this is again something I do know about. Once you have the 3D CAD model, your software has the option to export the model in several file formats that are suitable for printing. The most used file format for single color models is the "stl" format. So you just export your model in "stl" and you get a file. This file is understood by the 3D printer. So, as you said. One difficulty to be able to produce 3D printed parts is that you must use some software that allows you to draw or handle 3D computer models. This requirement is about the same as when computers and regular printers appeared to replace typewriters. To use a printer you would need to use a Word processor software. You use a word processor in a PC to write text, add pictures and so on. The word processor creates a file, generally in "pdf" format, that the printer understands to produce a sheet of paper with what you wrote in the word processor.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 13, 2015 8:10:53 GMT
Ed, does this mean that you have used or you use regularly 3D print technology to print METAL parts directly? One reported problem with shapeways is that they do not guarantee printing orientation, so some users get inconsistently layered parts, i.e not printed in the orientation they expected. That is a problem with them Joan and something I think Shapeways could improve on. I cannot remember if I posted this before but as you can see the recorder head on the right has not been printed in the same orientation as the left hand side and you can see the head move steps on it. Thanks Jimmy. This is in my opinion a big constraint to use the ShapeWays service. If 3D printers would have a sub-micron resolution then orientation would never be an issue, but this is not the case, so I would have hoped that you could specify orientation, or just let the parts be always printed in the orientation you submitted them. I do not get why they continue being so stubborn on not wanting to honour that after several years of complaints. I suppose they just try to optimise printing by grouping parts in the more convenient way for them and this leads to inconsistent orientations, but I am sure that many customers would just be happy to pay a small bonus to have their parts printed in their intended orientation.
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Post by Cro on Mar 13, 2015 9:07:41 GMT
I think part the reason they don't allow this is because they use a type of software that allows them to pack as many parts into the print area as possible, they have to maximise the amount printed every time the machine runs hence strange orientations.
Also on those speedo covers they are 2" scale I think and I'm fairly certain they were cast (or when I saw them I was lead to believe that) but I may be wrong I will have to check.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 13, 2015 9:36:12 GMT
I posted a request to ShapeWays to have an option to honour orientation at a higher price (or bonus) over the standard rate. My understanding is that they should be able to loose some ability to pack parts by asking a higher price for orientation-honoured parts. I do not count they will do anything because they are a big company, but I thought I should send anyway my concern to them. I think a lot of users would pay some more to have their parts orientation-honoured.
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abby
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Post by abby on Mar 13, 2015 16:29:54 GMT
I have used Shapeways.com for several years , indeed since their start-up with Philips , whilst the range of services and materials has increased over time the overall quality has not. I understand that Shapeways act as an agent and use outside contractors for some of the printing , the same STL file can be of an acceptable standard in one instance and totally un-useable for a further part. It would appear that what you receive is pure pot luck , no regard is given to the best printing orientation and parts are often heat distorted. There are several other companies available ,albeit more expensive , who will produce a far better job.
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 13, 2015 17:01:28 GMT
I have used Shapeways.com for several years , indeed since their start-up with Philips , whilst the range of services and materials has increased over time the overall quality has not. I understand that Shapeways act as an agent and use outside contractors for some of the printing , the same STL file can be of an acceptable standard in one instance and totally un-useable for a further part. It would appear that what you receive is pure pot luck , no regard is given to the best printing orientation and parts are often heat distorted. There are several other companies available ,albeit more expensive , who will produce a far better job. It occurs to me that demand has greatly and consistently surpassed production capacity and they just don't care about quality. As I am willing to test this technology, what other global companies would you recommend?
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Midland
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Post by Midland on Mar 13, 2015 22:18:21 GMT
As I am willing to test this technology, what other global companies would you recommend? This is all very informative if somewhat baffling for an old F***. I did operations research at university and studied PERT (Programme Evaluation and Review Technique). Upon joining industry (manufacturing North American freight cars) the engineers introduced me to the Product Engineering Network at the C1 Level. That interfaced with the Program and Product Evaluation Review, who sent their work to the Director Research and Work Integration nominating Group. This group then guided the men working in our factories to build tank cars and other railway vehicles. It worked quite well. But that was before Can anyone draw and can anyone makeit came in! Oh well back the model engineer for a good read!! Cheers D And oh a PS Apologies Alan!!!!
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Post by runner42 on Mar 14, 2015 4:38:43 GMT
So if my assumptions are correct then one must be able to use 3D CAD software before you are able to undertake 3D printing. Another instance where I am falling behind in the use of technology.
Brian Hi Brian, So, as you said. One difficulty to be able to produce 3D printed parts is that you must use some software that allows you to draw or handle 3D computer models. This requirement is about the same as when computers and regular printers appeared to replace typewriters. To use a printer you would need to use a Word processor software. You use a word processor in a PC to write text, add pictures and so on. The word processor creates a file, generally in "pdf" format, that the printer understands to produce a sheet of paper with what you wrote in the word processor. Thanks Joan,
since you indicated that using 3D CAD software is akin to learning to use a word processing program, I have bitten the bullet and installed FreeCAD a 3D CAD software program that should get me into using the basics. Who knows I might be proficient in the fullness of time. FreeCAD looks like a suitable program going by the sample files that one can load in, has anyone tried this software and indicate it's efficacy?
Brian
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Post by joanlluch on Mar 14, 2015 5:16:52 GMT
Hi Midland, We must not forget that for "anyone" to be able to draw a 3D part and get it on the post a lot of things had to happen. Just to mention a few: computers did need to be developed and evolved, and the same for 3D drawing software and 3D printers. In some sense technological revolution is just about embedding old things in new higher abstraction level technologies. As an example, if we compare this with the -now mature- desktop publishing technology, we could consider that "anyone" can produce a newspaper, but this is not just the case. The existence of the tools to do so, does not conclude the ability to use these tools in an effective way.
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peteh
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Post by peteh on Mar 14, 2015 8:14:01 GMT
I have to admit to only a passing interest, so far, in 3D printing - mainly due to cost. I was wondering if the printed Stainless Steel products are of the same structural strength as machined from solid or if the printing process is inherently weaker, which is my gut feeling.
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Post by alanstepney on Mar 14, 2015 9:58:35 GMT
I think the cost is the biggest factor, at the moment. However, computers and, for example laser printers used to cost a fortune and are now very cheap. If 3D printing goes the same way, it too will be afordable in the near future, so now might be the time to start seeing what it is capable of.
If aero engine makers, the car and medical industries are starting to use it, I dont think strength is the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 12:21:51 GMT
I'm not sure if the machines that give the required quality for our purposes will ever be cheap enough to have at home...even mid end industrial machines are in the £100's k bracket and they can't print metal.... in my industry 3D printing is becoming the norm rather than the unusual....today there are a number of model workshops that have 2 or 3 high end machines fitted... both Pinewood and Shepperton studios have such companies. IIRC the machines bought for the last bond film Skyfall cost about £200k each.. these were used for printing the 3rd scale Aston Martin's and helicopter for the big scenes at 007's ancestral home Skyfall. Even so there was a lot of final finishing required by model makers to get the finish good enough to fool the eye that they weren't models... the Aston's spoke wheels, grill etc were a work of art and would have taken many weeks to build by hand rather than a few hours in the printer. Here's a couple of stills of the finished car to wet your appetite's .. Pete
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Post by simplyloco on Mar 14, 2015 12:43:26 GMT
SNIP Here's a couple of stills of the finished car to wet your appetite's .. Pete Amazing! John
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jem
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Post by jem on Mar 14, 2015 17:28:12 GMT
If you are printing 3d in metal, what holds the metal particles together? presumably the metal is a dust in the printer. Is this a silly question from an old F...?
Jem
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redmog
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Post by redmog on Mar 14, 2015 18:12:04 GMT
If you are printing 3d in metal, what holds the metal particles together? presumably the metal is a dust in the printer. Is this a silly question from an old F...? Jem No. The printer controls a laser and fires into a bed of metal particles. Have a look at this video, 3rd one down on the left. www.solidconcepts.com/technologies/direct-metal-laser-sintering-dmls/Chris
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uuu
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your message here...
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Post by uuu on Mar 14, 2015 18:14:48 GMT
Well saved. Nobody noticed.
Wilf
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redmog
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Post by redmog on Mar 14, 2015 18:17:28 GMT
Well saved. Nobody noticed. Wilf Thanks, Looks like you did. Chris
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 14, 2015 18:31:57 GMT
with regard to jem's very interesting query (which i have also pondered over),
i remember Jack Poyner (of ME workshop series books on electro-plating fame) making a 5"g boiler (well most of it) via electroplating copper onto a polystyrene mould. it was done in the Plessey Radar department that Jack was in charge of, at Cowes on the Isle of Wight. the copper ended up a good 2.5 to 3mm thick. but there was never any suggestion that the electroplating process would produce copper equivalent in strength to 'solid' drawn steam tube and plate.
i presume will (uuu) was referring to the rugby today- of which there was only one 'important' match!
cheers, julian
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