Club's assistance to beginners

[smallbrother]

May 15, 2015 8:18:38 GMT michaelw said:

May 14, 2015 23:50:46 GMT runner42 said:

An interesting read, somewhat light on design requirements placing the emphasis on existing designs which would have been produced and using their assumed pressure tight integrity as precedents for continued use. LBSC designs would have passed with flying colours. For new designs the BI has the responsibility for approving the design.

Brian. 

Hi Brian ,

You have introduced an important point about assuming that all existing designs are sound .

Personally I see no justification for assuming that all existing designs for boilers are sound - indeed I take the opposite view that some of these designs should be treated with greatest suspicion and subject to full evaluation .

It's not just the shell strength of an existing design that would concern me - the detail design features of some these existing designs would need a lot of attention as well .

Regards ,

MichaelW

Hi Michael,

How do you square that with the many hundreds of working examples of boilers that were built to these old designs?

Did the builders add their own details to make them stronger?

Pete.

[alanstepney]

When I started in this hobby, I found several old guys (of the age that many of us now are) who had spent their lives in engineering and were willing to take me to their homes and teach me the basics of engineering.

I doubt that any of us would do it today, but I did learn a lot and will always be grateful to those guys.

As I have moved around the country (with my work) I have belonged to several clubs.
The best and most active had workshops and lots of activities.

At the other extreme, some just do public running and nothing more.

As for encouraging new members, I have heard of one club, where prospective members are interviewed and have to show their work, to "prove" they are suitable to become a member.
That attitude alone is enough to discourage me!

[runner42]

Hi Alan,

thanks for your comment, it is very pertinent based on your membership of many clubs you are able to establish the two extremes.

I am aware of your suggestion not to perpetuate the topic of the UK boiler code Test Code V12a here since it is a digression from the original topic, however the just to maintain continuity I have added a further comment because it is an opportunity for the down under guys that are controlled by the AMBSC Code Part 1 to see what the UK are doing.

Hi MichaelW,

I have not attempted an exhaustive critique just a few comments.

The UK boiler code V12a is a beginning only and I am not surprised that the contents are basically treading a path that attempts to satisfy everyone and upset no one. In the area of design it is cognisant of the vast amount of history established in boiler making in the UK where maybe even marginal designs have been demonstrated to be acceptable in use and using the precedent rule for their continued use. Precedents are powerful levers for continued use for those designs that maybe not now under an engineering examination be acceptable when you start to quantify safety limits that are better than two or three times. There is no doubt a powerful lobby that says these designs are acceptable so why impose more stringent requirements?

Where it references at para 5.1 "recognised design available through the model engineering trade and/or press", I would have liked it to produce a list of designs that satisfy this criterion, so at least it minimises the risk of an untried design being categorised as recognised.

In some areas it is more prescriptive than the AMBSC Code Part 1, an example is in the area of inspection prior to pressure testing where it requires that the condition of the threads in the boiler and blanking plugs are determined taking note that these could have been degraded due to heat during construction. This is somewhat of a dichotomy when some designs LBSC Doris being one that does not use bushes in the backhead fixings but rely on screwing straight into the boiler shell. The emphasis being on inspection and not design.

No doubt that this document will be updated and become a worthwhile guide to future UK model boiler builders.

Brian 

[jma1009]

hi brian,

to pick on one of your other points raised, in the UK there were very few clubs until the 1950s in the UK that had a permanent track. most clubs had until then just a portable track used for fetes and exhibitions. by the mid 1960s most 'decent' clubs in the UK had a permanent track, usually in public parks with a requirement to operate public passenger hauling. this was a quite different challenge to miniature locomotive builders. whilst LBSC's 3.5"g designs performed admirably, defects in some of his 5"g became very apparent. in essence this was a fault also of Greenly in 'scaling up' from 2.5"g rather than 'scaling down' from fullsize.

if you have access to MEs for 1923 and 1924 you can see lots of pictures of LBSC, and get an idea of what model engineering was like in these formative years. i could write a lot more on this but it is getting late!

cheers,
julian

[runner42]

Thanks Julian,

I am continually amazed how much information you are able to provide not only on the technical issues of building locomotives but also the history of the hobby at least in the UK. Is there any website that has the history of the clubs and the notable people who significantly advanced to the hobby of building model steam locomotives, LBSC notwithstanding?

Brian

[missemmajade2015]

Im in this same predicament. I know i should be more than capable of building a loco, and i realise ill have to join a club. I know i could learn a lot from more experienced members, and would enjoy taking that on board. Just seems that clubs are all about passenger hauling and revenue around here. I dont want to sell tickets to the public on my days off work as a retail manager, or even deal with them. That is why i hide in my workshop. Just seems thats a prerequisite of a fairly expensive annual membership. Its a little off putting. I understand it is important to keep the club running, but when i express an interest in smaller scales i get pushed away, ive been told by a couple of clubs that they wont pull enough passengers . The big rough briggs boiler narrow guage locos most tracks here have dont appeal to me at all, and i couldnt build something that size.or carry it around or store it anyway.

[alanstepney]

I can understand your problem. All I can suggest is checking out some other clubs, as there surely must be one that would suit you. (I hope!)

Or, post your approximate location and someone may be able to suggest one.

[jma1009]

hi brian,

i am afraid one of my favourite pastimes when not in the workshop is to read old copies of Model Engineer magazine! ive read every issue from the very first issue. i also had the task when a club secretary of archiving what was then some 65 years worth of documents, press cuttings, and photographs.

one of my oldest friends, now long since departed, and who persauded me to build my first loco, first got 'into' model engineering not because he was an engineer in the RN, or wanted to build a miniature steam loco, but because in the 1930s he wanted to build a gas engine and generator set to provide the family home with electricity for lighting and power the radio! (no mains electricity till the 1950's). how times have changed!

cheers,
julian

[ejparrott]

May 21, 2015 2:22:45 GMT missemmajade2015 said:

Im in this same predicament. I know i should be more than capable of building a loco, and i realise ill have to join a club. I know i could learn a lot from more experienced members, and would enjoy taking that on board. Just seems that clubs are all about passenger hauling and revenue around here. I dont want to sell tickets to the public on my days off work as a retail manager, or even deal with them. That is why i hide in my workshop. Just seems thats a prerequisite of a fairly expensive annual membership. Its a little off putting. I understand it is important to keep the club running, but when i express an interest in smaller scales i get pushed away, ive been told by a couple of clubs that they wont pull enough passengers . The big rough briggs boiler narrow guage locos most tracks here have dont appeal to me at all, and i couldnt build something that size.or carry it around or store it anyway.

The wife was in a similar position for many years. She was customer facing with a high street bank for a long time, and would never during that period sell tickets or refreshments at Public Runnings, nor for that matter at the Talyllyn where we volunteer would she work in the cafe or sell tickets at the main booking office, though would happily do so as required during duties as a Guard. She has always done Guard's duties at our club, she is the trainer and assessor.

Rugby has for many years been only interested in Public Running, thankfully a few of us are now pushing hard to turn that around and return it to Model Engineering. Public Running is unfortunately a requirement for many clubs, either because they are in a public park, or because the rent bill still comes in and still has to be paid! If we all said no to doing it, then the clubs wouldn't exist, or the subs would be much much higher and out of most peoples reach anyway, so where would you run your engines then? Kind of makes it pointless building them.

[steamcoal]

To those four previous posters, I am in 100 % agreement with what you all say.

I was asking myself the other day…is the Model Engineering Society really a relaviant organisation in todays world.

This hobby seems to have lost its roots and morphed into a commercial business where the predominant sole purpose is to forfill the needs of the public only, members wishes come a runner up. Yes I hear the need for paying the rent, be that to the landowner in cold hard cash or by way of remuneration as a duty to the local council by way of an amusement service in a local park but the true focus of the hobby surly is to the membership of each club.

Did the member really join the club to become a begrudging volunteer to look after someones elses children at parties for a few hour, shout at kids when parents should know better, turn up because you are rostered on even though you have had a bad day and it is raining and cold. This is a hobby of choice, a place of leisure and amusement for the creator and his like minded friends. A club is a venue where those that enjoy the same thing get together and endulge in their passion, be they good at it or just as a happy participant.

The words that Julian write are applicable to how we feel and how we want to enjoy our hobby. We take our engine to the club sit around and read old model engineers and enjoy the day, enjoy the piece and quiet and the challange of getting around the track, good or bad. The important thing is that we are in a place we want to be, enjoying what we want to do and when we what to do it.

Our friends at a club 100 miles away visited us last week, they moved to a big public park and were gifted a space to rebuild their railway by the local city council. It is a big ground level track but all they seem to do now is provide a passanger hauling service, its no hobby for them. They are on facebook and the kids turn up before the members, rain, hail or shine wanting rides and it has just snowballed into a monster. They have spent there millions developing the facility but what do they do now? They cannot do anything BUT provide a scheduled service at weekends and public holidays.. they are trapped!

If they had spent their half a million they could have bought there own land and made it their own, there members club not the public club which it is now. I am sorry if i am cynical but that is how I see it and i have for a long time. If I go to my workshop I am there by myself by choice and if I want people I will invite them but I do not expect twenty people to come join me. Like if I go play golf I do not expect to have to coach twenty beginners, its my place and my time away from the world and if I want to burn coal and make steam I damn well will.

So if you can, reclaim your club for the hobbists that your are. You pay your membership and you deserve the use of your facilities.


ahhhhhhh…….thats better now.


Hayden

p.s Cannot wait till the weekend and we can get more of our private track built, no committees, no fluro vest, no kids parties…just the way it should be.

[jma1009]

i agree with Hayden that a balance needs to struck with many clubs.

in the UK there are so many model engineering clubs that usually you can find one not too far away that suits. very few clubs achieve the correct balance.

a lot of this is historical in the sense that if lots of members in a club build lots of locos they then want somewhere to run them! the first club i joined bought a piece of land in the late 1950s, built a track on it with a boating lake in the middle for the model boat members, and no requirement to operate for the public. the only income was from members subscriptions so there was never a pool of money sloshing around waiting for someone to come up with a new construction project to spend it! (quite a few clubs have become almost mini construction companies where an ability to constantly mix concrete or weld are more important than whether you are building anything model engineering-wise!)

there are a number of clubs that carefully avoided onerous 'public running' clauses in leases with local authorities. other clubs have not been so fortunate either through ignorance, lack of proper legal advice, or a 'take it or leave it' attitude on the part of the local authority.

the first club i joined as above didnt own a large piece of land but it was and is quite adequate. when we wanted to run our locos on a longer track we visited other club tracks on days out! we had the offer of a much larger site but as it would require regular public running this was considered too onerous and was turned down.

i enjoy running for the public, but the idea of doing 'santa' specials, halloween specials, easter specials with lots of silly dressing up isnt my thing.

cheers,
julian

[ejparrott]

I think you're right Julian, a balance is very important, and at Rugby at the moment it's certainly the wrong way, but the knock on effect is that it's a good thing, in as much as it's providing the income we need to be able to finance the current extension plans, which extend not only to the track but also to the workshop.

I actually like hauling passengers. I like having my engines work. I went to Birmingham a year or two ago for a Hunslet day, she never blew off all day, as I ran her at only 50psi all afternoon, there just being me and Holly it wasn't worth any more, and frankly, I found running like that a bit boring. 6 or 8 passengers as well and I'd have been much happier.

That said, I for one would not want to be in the same situation as clubs that have to run every week - that would then get tedious and hard work, which is not what I'm in this game for!

[Deleted]

There was a time when many large factories had extensive sports grounds and social club facilities . At least a dozen of these had model engineering/boat/aeroplane/railway sections with meeting rooms , tracks , ponds and flying strips all provided .

Royal Navy and Air Force also had similar at some locations .

Almost all gone now but I wonder whether the general principle of industrial sponsorship for model engineering clubs could be revived to avoid need for compulsory public running in order to pay bills and meet commitments and just as important or perhaps even more important get a link back between real engineering and model engineering ?

'Industry' would have to be loosely interpreted in this day and age but I'm sure that there are at least a few sympathetic businesses out there that could both contribute and get something worthwhile back .

[alanstepney]

A ggod point.
I am sure that most clubs would appreciate some sponsorship.

As for public running, I detest it. I used to do it once, but no more.
However, for those like me who dont want to haul kids around, I am sure that there are other ways of helping the club.

[steamcoal]

I have purposely got two smaller locos, Maisie and Railmotor so I cannot pull many apart from myself and one other by choice. Maisie will pull of course on a flat track, no question by I limit my obligations. Hunslet will pull a ton (tonne) or more so not excuse there but I refrained from getting my drivers cert for as long as possible just so they (the club committee) could not rope me into driving for them. In the end they forced me to sit the test as they said I was illegal to run due to the amusement device regulations, even just by myself most of the time. Now I am one of few with all classes of loco in the club and the only one capable of hauling two or more passanger cars behind the Hunslet.

I just do not see why I should wear out my engine(s) for there pleasure of others. I just do not want that liability, not just only the passangers but also my engines. Kids have no real clue or care what engine is up front so the petrol engines can do the donkey work.

I am happy to pull a few passangers around but I do it for the pleasure not for the money and I think this is where it is all wrong.

Micheal, It is a good point and it would be great to involve youngsters to build something at least. Even if it was not a ride on streamer but anything that operated on rails or went around. Maybe we need to think along the lines of what Apple Company does.The next best thing etc, etc. Maybe the youngester should just learn to save there money and even if they have to buy an engine it is a worthwhile leason on how ther world really works. You cannot have it NOW.

Technology needs to be bought together and we all know that rail is a great mover of material, what just stuffs it up are the accountants!

[ejparrott]

May 25, 2015 2:10:55 GMT steamcoal said:

Kids have no real clue or care what engine is up front so the petrol engines can do the donkey work.

You obviously have a very different class of kid to what we have in the UK. The queue for both our tracks is parallel to the station tracks, and whilst sitting waiting while the train is sorted you can hear the conversations. The main theme is which one they have ridden and which they haven't, and frequently what I hear is that they don't want to ride on the diesels! We have people letting their places in the queue go because they don't want to ride anything but steam. Then we have the ones who want to ride the more unusual loco's like the visiting Shay.

May 22, 2015 14:59:56 GMT alanstepney said:

However, for those like me who dont want to haul kids around, I am sure that there are other ways of helping the club.

There are. Our site is quite large and there is an awful lot of work of the green-fingered variety, which I for one detest doing! We desperatly need gardeners who can look after and promote the flowerbeds and borders.

[steamcoal]

I suppose that in the UK steam railways are still a part of ones upbringing and the access to one is rather more common than here.

My generalisation is probably concerned with kiddies parties. We do get a few who do have a knowledge of what a steam locomotive is but the fact that public miniature railways are commonly hauled by petrol does not help the cause. I am sure two Hunslets could well cope with our demand. We have actually said we would do some hauling with the Hunslets but not all the time as it is an ownerous task and it is not feasible to allow club members to haul on a private engine.

A club owned steam loco throws up all sorts of possible issues. They could not keep a Juliet going so godness knows how something else like Sweet pea would fair. I would love to have a club loco like a Sweet Pea and I probably would jump at the chance to drive it but they just don't want to spend any money. Putting the cart before the horse in my mind.

[ejparrott]

Actually the larger the loco the easier it is, they are much more forgiving.

However, avoid Sweet Pea as it has a marine firebox - fine if you're well versed in firing them, a real pig and a disappointment if not.

[chuffedtobits]

Dear All,


I though I would post a brief introduction as I am new to the forum.


I have always had an ambition to build a live steam locomotive since a very, very early age. Now 47,with slightly more time available, this may even become a reality?


I initially found the site while searching for drawings for a Merchant Navy class and I was also attempting to learn 3D CAD, as I love these locomotives, and their derivatives.


I came across John Baguley's (Baggo's) stunning 3D CAD model (and pictures of his beautiful 'working model'), so I sent John a private email asking where I could acquire the drawings.

To my pleasant astonishment and / or amazement John emailed me the entire scanned series of ‘Model Engineer’ for the construction of ‘Ariel’, plus a detailed list of known errors, updated drawings, lots of 2D CAD drawings, GA’s, photographs and more!


Sincere thanks Baggo!


I also came across the superb website hosted by Rob Speare, containing a wealth of information on Bulleid locos, which I am sure everyone on this forum is already very aware of, but I would like to formally thank, congratulate and acknowledge all the engineers who contributed.


bulleidlocos.org.uk/


I am currently attempting to build an absolutely exact or near as possible down to rivet / bolt detail scale 7 model for a start, before progressing to a larger live steam gauge, as ‘getting it wrong’ with regard to castings, general machining and laser cutting, would eat a huge hole in my non-bottomless wallet, only satisfying the rubbish bin and the ‘good old drawing board’ which is now a computer of course! A live scale 7 steam model may be a start, but even scaled leaf spring tension vs weight / materials used construction is difficult scaled down. There is some superb maths / formulae contained in Model Engineer though!


Some members on the forum may have seen my early 3D .pdf files and drawings already?


Apologies in advance, as I appreciate this forum is for ‘real live steam’ enthusiasts, but where does one start in such an endeavour to build a working scale model without initial help, mentoring or guidance? Without the skills and knowledge to maintain our original beautiful steam relics, the majority of which are sadly now confined to dusty museums, despite being an intrinsic part of our heritage, the skills will be lost and forgotten by most people forever…


Why not have an ambition or attempt to make a live working steam model, and learn how it works?



My background is in electronics, software, PCB, and sheet metal, mechanical design, so I am not a complete engineering novice, and I am having a superb time learning how these steam behemoths, actually work, studying books etc. The beauty and elegance of how they work should not be forgotten by the younger generations to follow?