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Post by 92220 on Nov 18, 2016 14:51:23 GMT
Superb models! Julian has asked me to add something about the shade of Stroudley's Improved Engine Green. First off, the colour doesn't come even close to 'Green'. There is a thought in some circles, that Stroudley was actually colour blind to some colours, and it does seem logical. However, getting back to the actual shade of the Improved Engine Green; When BR started building the Western class diesels, 3 of them were painted in non-standard colours - 2 were painted 'Desert Sand' and 1, D1015 Western Champion was painted Golden Ochre. This particular colour was rather special because it was used for the final coat only. They didn't have enough paint to paint more than one coat because it came out of a tin that was found in Brighton Works, and was labelled - you've guessed it - Engine Green! They just had one gallon - just enough for one coat plus some sample colour panels for the British Railways Surface Coatings Lab at Derby. Now you might think that is rather far fetched and paint doesn't last that long. Actually it does if protected from air and light. A brim-full tin of paint will last almost indefinitely while still in liquid form and in an airtight tin rather than a bottle, to protect the resins from air and the pigments from light. It will just need VERY thorough mixing to break up the settled pigments and get them back into suspension. The current Phoenix Precision Paints colour was matched to a sample panel that was provided by the Surface Coatings Lab when the original Precision Paints Ltd was a BR contractor for special locomotive livery colours. This was provided in case they ever needed touch-up paint.
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 18, 2016 22:18:41 GMT
Thank you Bob and George.
Would I therefore be correct in thinking that the Precision/Pheonix paints Stroudley 'Golden Ochre' is based on the second batch (the first batch was the criticised wrong shade) produced at Brighton in 1947 for the painting of Boxhill in 1947?
Boxhill has since been repainted at Clapham in 1961, and subsequently at York. The shade now on Boxhill is quite different to that at Clapham!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by 92220 on Nov 19, 2016 8:15:27 GMT
Hi Julian
Yes. The sample panel used for colour matching, was actual LBSC paint, and came from the same tin of paint as D1015 so I was told by the Surface Coatings Lab. If Boxhill has been repainted, the colour ought to match the Phoenix Precision colour because when I retired from the paint business, I gave all my original samples to the NRM.
Bob
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Post by 92220 on Nov 19, 2016 19:06:09 GMT
Hi Folks.
Julian sent me a PM asking what the second diesel to be painted in Desert Sand was. Ooopps!! Memory had a slight hiccup after 12 years out of the business! He made me realise I made a mistake in my post. There were NOT two diesels painted Desert Sand. Only D1000 Western Enterprise was painted that colour.
Bob
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Post by GeorgeRay on Nov 19, 2016 22:03:41 GMT
Bob
The Brighton Circle two years ago were very concerned that the latest batches of the Precision Paint Improved Engine Green were a different colour to the original and when the visit was made to Como this was shown to be the case. The original Phoenix paint was a close match but the latest version is more chocolaty to precis the conclusions of the people who went to the Brighton museum.
George Ray
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 19, 2016 23:25:03 GMT
I am very grateful to George for his post, and for Bob's comments. Both explain in a way why Carl was unsatisfied originally with the Pheonix paint current product.
It is quite clear to me that no LBSCR stock of Robert Ingrams paint existed in 1947 when Boxhill was first repainted. Robert Ingrams was the supplier of Stroudley Golden Ochre in LBSCR days up till 1907 when Marsh changed the livery. Robert Ingrams works were bombed in WW2 and all records were lost. I have been in correspondence with an elderly employee of Robert Ingrams.
It is pretty clear to me that the Derby paint panels were based on what was dreampt up at Brighton in 1947. Perhaps someone visited Como when Dr Bradbury Winter was still alive (he died in 1950). Whoever did the first batch of paint for Boxhill obviously did not, as the first batch was far too yellow in colour and was heavily criticised including J.N. Maskelyne in the pages of ME at the time, and this lead to a further repainting.
The only correct match must be off Como in Brighton Museum, as this used the original paint circa 1900-1905 from Brighton Works. I would ask tentatively of Bob whether the Precision/Pheonix paints specification was ever compared with Como in Brighton Museum?
J.N. Maskelyne described the composition of the Ingrams Stroudley paint in some detail.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by springcrocus on Nov 20, 2016 8:15:57 GMT
Although I applaud those who try to create something as close to the original as possible, I do find the search for an exact colour match to something used many years ago a somewhat pointless task. Whatever colour paint was applied to a locomotive a hundred years ago, I would not expect it to look the same now because of slow chemical reactions occurring within the applied paint. Even the colour of the stored paint would vary slightly during storage over the timescales we are talking here. A bit like chasing rainbows, I think. Steve
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Post by 92220 on Nov 20, 2016 9:07:55 GMT
Bob The Brighton Circle two years ago were very concerned that the latest batches of the Precision Paint Improved Engine Green were a different colour to the original and when the visit was made to Como this was shown to be the case. The original Phoenix paint was a close match but the latest version is more chocolaty to precis the conclusions of the people who went to the Brighton museum. George Ray Hi George.
I will see if I have a sample of the original mixed colour and see if I can get an up-date can and check it out. I can't promise, and it may take some time as I am not even sure if I still have a sample panel. If I do it is buried somewhere in the loft!!! You are right about the original mix being a good match for Como. That is original LBSC paint and was a perfect match for the BR panel I was given. yellow Ochre was the basis of the colour and Yellow Ochre is one of the few pigments that doesn't change colour very much at all, with age, so Como can be taken as accurate. It doesn't look as if it has been varnished either. If it has, it is a very thin coat which wouldn't have discoloured appreciably with age.
Another point that is almost always overlooked: All paint, prior to WW2 was made with natural pigments and resins, which varied quite a lot in shade. The railway companies also used very crude recipes for producing the colours, so there were always variations in shade. Interestingly, the formula for LNER Wagon Grey was in existence in the paint shop at Doncaster Works, in the 1980s. It stated:- take a shovel of carbon black and a shovel of lead white and mix with linseed oil etc....Definitely not an accurate way to reproduce the colour! Some, like the GWR took a bit of trouble to get colours right, but with the variations in the pigments, it was almost impossible. They didn't have the range of pigments we have today either, nor did they have the equipment, in those days. Today, pigments are accurate shade, batch to batch, because they are mainly synthetic. Colours are produced by weight using equipment that is accurate to within 0.1gms, so we can guarantee colours can be made to 'touch-up' accuracy, batch to batch.
Another point to remember when comparing colours, is that in the 'old days' all locomotives and rolling stock, was varnished, with varnish based on linseed oil - usually 3 coat minimum. This discoloured within the first few months exposed to the railway sulpherous environment. When I matched the GWR colours for the original Precision Paints, I was loaned the livery panels from Swindon Works archive, which were kept out of the light. I had to do the same except when actually matching the colours. It was interesting to note the differences in shade was entirely due to the varnish coats, except for the oldest panel. Where the varnish had chipped off, the GWR Loco Green was, as near as could be seen in the small unvarnished patches, the same colour. On the backs of the panels were details of the varnish coats. I can't remember the details except for the fact that the number of coats got less and less over the years. The dates of the panels corresponded to the dates that Precision use for GWR loco colours. When I matched the panels I matched to the varnished coats which was what would have been seen. Sorry I digressed from content of the original post, but I thought it might have some relevance.
(edit) One thing I forgot to mention: the newest GWR panel - 1945 - was not varnished, possibly because it was synthetic, and that was the true GWR Loco Green.
Bob
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 20, 2016 19:11:28 GMT
Thanks very much Bob for your further replies.
So there we are Steve... it isnt silly at all. You can paint your lovely BR loco when finished in Humbrol No.3 Brunswick Green enamel and you will regret it as it is nothing like any shade of BR Green, or for that matter GWR Green. And you wont half get some stick as a result!
Fellow IWMES member Fred Wills painted his lovely 5"g GWR Manor Humbrol No.3 enamel, and got so much stick as a result that he stripped all the paint off and ran it like Derek Alford's 3.5"g LNER loco in polished brass. I did re-paint for Fred his 3.5"g Bantam Cock in LNER livery as originally it was painted red! His daughters wanted it painted red like 'James' when originally finished.
Going back to Stroudley Golden Ochre, the last loco to wear this livery was Tillington until 1917 when re-painted. Some loco colours are very interesting and you really ought to get them right. My first loco was painted with Metropolitan 'crimson' from Neasden shed. It was the most wonderful colour. It wasnt crimson but a deep Victorian chocolately crimson. Steamingmess's Dad Keith supplied the paint as he had worked at Neasden. It was the same batch Sarah Siddons and the LT pannier tanks were painted with.
The Stroudley livery is so detailed and well known that the care taken by Carl is a just reward. To get it wrong is both a waste of preparation time and money in paint plus execution in time and effort of the highly detailed lining out.
A number of us have commented via email of a 5"g terrier painted in bright yellow instead of Stroudley's Golden Ochre. It has appeared at a number of exhibitions over the last 5 years. It looks hideous.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by springcrocus on Nov 20, 2016 22:38:16 GMT
Julian, if you choose to interpret my post such that I think getting the colour correct is silly, that's your prerogative. Others may rightly interpret it as a statement regarding the difficulty of verifying that any chosen colour is actually an accurate representation of the original considering how colours change with time. However, I am advised that numbers, rather than words, are your forte and that some have difficulty understanding the finer nuances of the written word. Why did Humbrol paints enter the discussion? Were you, maybe, expecting me to paint my locomotive with Dulux quick-dry gloss or something similar? I must visit B&Q to collect a colour chart! When I come to start painting Britannia, if Bob is happy to advise me, I will follow any recommendations he may make regarding choice of paint and colours etc. but that is some way in the future yet. Kind regards, Steve
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Haymes
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Post by Haymes on Nov 20, 2016 22:45:40 GMT
Many thanks all for your insights. I was very interested to read your report George of others who thought that the current IEG from Phoenix Precision appears too dark. I think my end result is ok, maybe a shade too bright, but it depends on the lighting conditions. It's closer to Gladstone than Como. The Riolett paint is cellulose based but the hardener makes it reasonably tough. I will elaborate further in another post on the painting and lining when I have the chance!
Regards, Carl
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 20, 2016 23:21:43 GMT
Hi Steve,
You stated above "Although I applaud those who try to create something as close to the original as possible, I do find the search for an exact colour match to something used many years ago a somewhat pointless task".
I suggested instead that this was not a pointless task, and gave examples.
You then stated you would in effect paint your loco on the advice of the greatest living expert on this subject!
We are hijacking Carl's thread for which I am at fault for. In the 1980s you saw many miniature GWR and BR locos painted with Humbrol No.3
Cheers, Julian
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Post by 92220 on Nov 21, 2016 10:08:00 GMT
I know this thread was originally about LBSCR Ochre, but then BR Green drifts in. Perhaps I can add a bit more: BR Loco Green, prior to 1954 was produced to BR Spec 30. I don't know when Spec 30 was introduced (because the copy that the Surface Coatings Lab sent me in the mid 1970s, got lost in the post and it was the only copy outside of the NRM) but that was when the BR Loco Green was standardised as GWR Loco Green. The spec also stated that the colour must be "a near match for the standard panel". This obviously meant that the colour could vary, depending on which paint manufacturer supplied the paint, and under what light, and time of year, the batch was colour matched. In 1954, Spec 54 was introduced and the shade of BR Loco Green was modified. At the time, there was a move within the board of directors, to get away from colours from the old railway companies because it apparently caused tensions between the various regions. BR Loco Green became everso slightly darker. The BR Spec 54 still specified that the shade must be a "near match", not an exact match. When BR Blue was introduced on the diesels, the spec changed again. I can't remember the number because I never saw that one, but the spec for colours changed from being a "near match" to being of "touch up quality", meaning that any manufacturer's paint could be used to touch up any other paint, and the touch-up wouldn't be obvious. Here's a funny story (not many in the paint business!): During the BR Rail Blue period, various locos were outshopped in Loco Green, and sometimes Loco Maroon. I produced all the paint for these locos. One Friday lunchtime I got a phone call from Plymouth workshops - can I get 5 x 5 litres of BR Spec 30 Loco Green to them for the next day.I had only sent them the same amount a couple of weeks previous. Not a chance! There was no way that amount of paint could be colour matched and shipped out in a couple of hours. At that time of year, accurate colour matching could only be done between around 11am and 1pm due to daylight becoming progressively redder and darker. I was curious as to why this was so urgent. I was told that they had just painted the loco that was to be used on the Royal Train and a new cleaner had taken the loco to the wash shed. He didn't remember that the cleaning fluid had to be diluted 20-1 and used the solution neat. The loco went in one end Green and while in the washer the solution burned the new paint to a delicate shade of Brown! Ooopps! Luckily I had a full set of Gipgloss car paint swatch books and was able to advise the guy what was the nearest colour to ours. Not a perfect match but near enough in the emergency.
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Post by springcrocus on Nov 22, 2016 9:12:31 GMT
Hi Steve, You stated above .. Cheers, Julian Hello, Julian Well, I am undecided as to whether you have difficulty understanding what you are reading, or that you are just being obtuse. I am reliably informed that you are an intelligent person, although I decline to reveal my source to save any embarrasment, so I can only assume the latter. from your second post on the matter - You stated above "Although I applaud those who try to create something as close to the original as possible, I do find the search for an exact colour match to something used many years ago a somewhat pointless task". I suggested instead that this was not a pointless task, and gave examples.The clue was in the use of the word EXACT which, if you care to check, has a somewhat limited definition. I was hoping to promote some discussion about just how accurate paint colours can be and you start waffling on about Humbrol No.3. I do, however, accept that my intention wasn't absolutely obvious. from your first post on the matter - So there we are Steve... it isnt silly at all. You can paint your lovely BR loco when finished in Humbrol No.3 Brunswick Green enamel and you will regret it as it is nothing like any shade of BR Green, or for that matter GWR Green. And you wont half get some stick as a result!I made no mention of my own loco, nor did I use the word "silly" so your response comes across as an opportunity to put someone else down whilst once again polishing your own ego - I did re-paint for Fred his 3.5"g Bantam Cock in LNER liveryBack to your second post - You then stated you would in effect paint your loco on the advice of the greatest living expert on this subject!
We are hijacking Carl's thread for which I am at fault for. In the 1980s you saw many miniature GWR and BR locos painted with Humbrol No.3Why would asking Bob's advice be at odds with my earlier statement? And as for hijacking Carl's thread, my post was on topic because we had all commented on how good his tender looked and were discussing paint. I suspect that, despite our private correspondence of some weeks ago, you are still smarting at the slight disagreement we had and feel the need to take a pop at me now and again. Well, carry on, my friend, to me it is like water off a duck's back and at least someone else is being spared the effects of a caustic tongue for a time. Oh, and I do find sycophancy distasteful, don't you? Regards, Steve
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mbrown
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Post by mbrown on Nov 22, 2016 18:23:41 GMT
The trouble with forum posts is that simple misunderstandings get escalated into verbal fist fights. I don't think it is sycophantic to say that you are both valued members of the forum whose posts I find interesting, helpful and sometimes amusing, especially at the end of a dispiriting day at work or in the workshop. If arguments like this cause either of you to post comments and ideas less often we all end up as losers.
And if, as a result, we lose the fascinating thread on this fantastic model loco, we are doubly losers. Maybe we can get back on topic.
Sermon over ....
Malcolm
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Post by springcrocus on Nov 22, 2016 19:19:57 GMT
The trouble with forum posts is that simple misunderstandings get escalated into verbal fist fights. I don't think it is sycophantic to say that you are both valued members of the forum whose posts I find interesting, helpful and sometimes amusing, especially at the end of a dispiriting day at work or in the workshop. If arguments like this cause either of you to post comments and ideas less often we all end up as losers. And if, as a result, we lose the fascinating thread on this fantastic model loco, we are doubly losers. Maybe we can get back on topic. Sermon over .... Malcolm Yes, Malcolm, you are quite correct. I will allow Julian the courtesy of the last word on this, if he wishes, and will refrain from replying. Apologies to other members, especially Carl, who may have found this exchange unsavoury. Regards, Steve
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jma1009
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 22, 2016 21:12:28 GMT
Hi Steve,
As far as I am concerned we have no differences or grudges.
I am sure Bob will advise you on the best paint to apply to the bits of your loco, and the correct lining out colours. You will not I assume make the mistake of painting it in Humbrol No.3 Brunswick Green enamel!
When you consider Victorian colours they are often of complex deep pigments, aided by many coats of undercoat and top coats and the effects of varnish. I remember (I think it was the late Bob Gale) describing GWR green as mixture of brown mud and deep green. You see this on the locos painted at Didcot but rarely on GWR miniature locos. It is the most wonderful deep colour, and I suggest rather complex. Bob (92220) and I might disagree over this.
Some railway companies in the Victorian era painted their locos in a completely contrary way. The impecunious Isle of Wight Central Railway used 'brick red' for many years. This was nothing other than red lead oxide primer varnished! The LBSCR used something similar for tender tops in the Stroudley and Billinton era.
None of this has any bearing on Carl's excellent paint job and lining out. The Stroudley lining is very complicated awkward and difficult.
Cheers, Julian
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Haymes
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Post by Haymes on Jul 30, 2019 20:38:30 GMT
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Post by simplyloco on Jul 30, 2019 20:40:12 GMT
Delightful! John
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2019 21:02:57 GMT
That's a lovely looking loco Carl, top class model sir..
Pete
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