penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on May 26, 2015 11:43:22 GMT
So here's how it goes We are a small club that wants to enhance the facilities for members So we hold open days to create revenue then we find we need the following more rolling stock more club (common user) locomotives better toilet facilities better kitchen facilities larger track circuit So we hold open days to create revenue we become very busy so we need more rolling stock then we need better kitchen facilities then we require improved storage for rolling stock So we hold birthday parties to create revenue then we find open days are packed out so we are concerned about facilities So we decide we need a large carriage shed So we need more members, then we realise we are becoming involved in a circular process of ever more revenue creating activity and we spend even less time enjoying the very reason we started ie model engineering and running our locos and drinking tea and putting the world to rights. So do we a) restrict running days b)increase the membership (so you don't get guilt tripped for non attendance) see other posting c)try and find a better balance between meeting the needs of the public (who essentially finance our hobby) and the needs of the members??? Answers on a postcard to... (cont p94)
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on May 26, 2015 13:01:44 GMT
Absolutely brillianty summarised. It is totally balmy the whole damn thing.
What about the balance between work put in and the actual days that the track is in operation.
From what I can make of the situation, it seems four times the effort is put in for every day that the club actually runs. More track maintenance, leaf raking, painting, track making is done, etc, etc I know that the effort of running a railway is labour intensive but to some degree the ability of ground level tracks to rampage unhindered could have something to do with it maybe. It begins with a oval, becomes a loop then a left turnout, bridge. It just goes on and on and then you end up with hundred or thousands of feet of track and vegetation to look after.meanwhile you are too worn out ( physically ) to go to the club to run an engine….you have spent a great part of the week there doing maintenance already. My fellow member who run parties complain they have not run there engines in months, well hello?? Guess why??
Was this the case with raised track? They were labour intensive and costly to build, yes, but once there are constructed you were committed to running on it and only major works were needed for an extension. Ground level can just go on and on…forever. That is great if you like building railways but when I am 70, or 50 the last thing I want to do is shovel gravel and shift spoil. Done that and its time to enjoy life and run an engine.
I did a rough budget for our club and the difference between our current membership fee of $NZ50 (or say 50 quid) and the actual true cost of running the club which was $NZ 83.40 per member So for an increase of $33.40 the club could operate without having to rely on continual parties and members could enjoy the full use of the club all weekend, unhindered. i must add that one quarter of the running cost is just to pay the electricity bill. Any revenue from parties rendered could go into the pot and in three years they could buy a club stram engine. Raised track maintiance in minimal and we are all happy. I just cannot make out what a committee wants the club to be
Its a rather cheap hobby for us and thank goodness we cannot expand beyond our rented premises.
Its a great issue to confront over a cup of tea.
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on May 26, 2015 15:30:08 GMT
Ah so there's the rub! If you increase the subs that could deter the young, retired or not working. It seems a good solution in one sense, you could then concentrate on enjoying the facilities and running trains. However, it needs either a large active membership, or a smallish facility with low running costs. But our costs are climbing as we meet the needs of the public. Grrrrrrrrrrr!
|
|
|
Post by peterseager on May 29, 2015 6:39:26 GMT
Our track is in a private orchard and so public running is not an option but we have a portable track and attend fetes to earn the money to pay for the public liability insurance for the club so that we are covered when we have a steam up at the track with invited guests and neighbours. The portable track events cost members time and money so increasing the club fees has been discussed as an option but so far disregarded. A few can be fun but too many and its not fun,
Peter
|
|
|
Post by suctionhose on May 31, 2015 0:44:00 GMT
I know you're reading the recruitment thread but does $83 include your insurance premium? Off top of head I think just the premium is about $100 per head plus other operating costs.
It's a balancing act. It can't be all one way. Deciding what you do and don't do is the key. Don't be a victim of public demand but at same time a lot more is possible with the income than not.
|
|
smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,268
|
Post by smallbrother on May 31, 2015 9:12:59 GMT
I have suggested to our club chairman that we adopt an idea from rugby clubs. There is usually a grade of member called vice-president. Essentially you get the same benefits as an ordinary member but you pay more. Also accept monthly standing orders to spread the cost over 12 months. Probably too radical for the ME world!
Pete.
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on Jun 2, 2015 11:27:01 GMT
Interesting idea about levels off membership and different rates of fees. Its something that has been discussed at our club and I can see that whilst it would be more work to administer it could have benefits Another idea would be potential discounts offered to those who use their own locomotives to run on "open days". Perhaps a reduced annual fee or free coal or maybe a different arrangement regarding storage. I think clubs are a bit like I heard churches described as once.....they are built with bananas, all different unique shapes but when held together by a glue of common belief or passion they can be quite formidable.
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Jun 2, 2015 12:10:48 GMT
Ross. I did actually post a reply to your question buts it must have gone AWOL.
That proposed fee estimate does include the insurances ( liability/ 3rd party and assets) we are small club mind you.
Unfortunately our committee is driven by a president ( she) who is not really a model engineer but one that sees the club as a entertainment venue. I have no problem having her in the seat of power but they forget the whole constitutional purpose of the MES formed all those years ago. For a small raise in fees the members can practically do away from parties but we still welcome the public, just not on demand every weekend or two.
The balance is really a club for the members or a club for others entertainment. If they ( madam president) justify the need for outside events from a fiscal point of view to fund the club the executive are not running the club in the correct manner. It is a balance but when it is tipped too much in favour of hosting outside events to the detriment of members access to their facilities then it is a serious matter. We cannot expand and we have upcomming capital repairs but if a club is just funded on a break even basis with such a low membership fee then in times of declining revenues the coffers are required to be drained. Eventually one becomes insolvent and is wound up.
Everyone seems to say to keep the fees low but when this does not cover the basic outgoings how is a reserve fund likely to be generated? We are no different to any other hobby of sports club and compared to some a MES have a very large asset in terms of infrastructure. I am told that a local model flying club has a fee of $170 these days and my own has $90 with no assets and gifted flying site.
As for the fee, I have in the past paid a protest subscription above the required at the rate it should be. I have donated paint and rubbish disposal fees, not much in the scheme of things but it all helps. I will be very interested in the financial report at the AGM in two weeks to see how the balance is, and I don't just mean the financial one.
|
|
|
Post by suctionhose on Jun 4, 2015 10:54:49 GMT
Thanks for the additional information. In a way, your post illustrates the dilemma. Money to keep the facilities up to scratch or not? What is the extent of facilities necessary to enjoy oneself and is that enhanced in real terms by catering to a greater degree to the public?
Personally. I'm inclined to separate the membership subs from the operational costs of the club. If being a member at all offers benefits not found elsewhere then being a member has a value. As you say your nearby flying club and most golf clubs (I would think) value that benefit somewhat higher than MES's do!
The risk of undervaluing the price of something is that people want it for the wrong reasons and don't appreciate it for what it is. You know, the "it's not important, I got it cheap" mentality when in fact had the person paid a far market price they would likely honour the purchase with more respect.
Operating income, that is cost recovery, putting something aside for eventual replacement of capital and providing funds for improvement, disaster recovery, etc is a separate matter in my view. I sound like an accountant but nothing is further from the truth! My trade is toolmaking but closer to a fitter / machinist in experience.
There are happy groups of people operating semi private tracks without public rides as income. Maybe for such a privilege membership should be set at $500. I heard of one such club asking about $1000 pa. Keeps the half hearted away I guess! Some clubs operate on visitor donations only.
Whatever the balance your club seeks, the financial realties of a sustainable operation cannot be ignored. I think if you take total annual expenditure at our club divided by members it comes out at $300 to $400 per head. We are not a large club either.
I don't know what I can give you besides sympathy and encouragement to speak up and put forward alternatives if you want it to change. The happy medium is almost certainly unique to your particular group of enthusiasts and you should not feel obligated to, enslaved by or anything but believing in the society and its activities.
The fun factor must be real!
|
|
|
Post by alanstepney on Jun 4, 2015 16:46:34 GMT
It is interesting to see the different views.
To me, the purpose of a Model Engineering club is to please and benefit the members. As a secondary objective, public running can help not just from the fund raising, but also from the PR viewpoint. For most clubs, there is pressure to use the land for other purposes (probably for building) and that is when strong local support may be invaluable, and allow the club to stay instead of being turned out and replaced by xxxx.
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Jun 4, 2015 22:02:54 GMT
In the historical past how were MES funded?, I'm talking about the 50's and 60's in the hay day of the hobby?
Could it be that there was a greater support from industry and those that came from the "trades"? There did not seem to be the hightened level of commercialism that there appears to be now. Could this indicate that the financial aspect of a MES has lost touch with the real world. Certainly the deminished level of employment in associated business and reduced disposible income plus the pressure of the increasingly corporatised and commercially driven world has or is jepodising the existance of the hobby.
Is there a serious threat to the hobby? I think there is, and one of the ways to protect against this is to "buy the land" Has the historical offerings of cheap rental of "Public land" actually been the undoing of the MES.
I wonder?
|
|
jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,896
|
Post by jma1009 on Jun 4, 2015 22:24:47 GMT
hi hayden,
from my own knowledge of the archives of my first club i would say that overheads were considerably less. insurance was peanuts, postage and paper cost far less, and gestetner duplicating cost peanuts for quarterly newsletters, annual reports, annual accounts etc. until the late 1990s my first club had an unwritten rule that membership fees covered insurance, room hire, and postage and correspondence costs, and rates on the club site and water rates (which in each case of rates were much reduced from the norm due to an exemption under the Rates Act and our water supply being 'agricultural'). anything else was aimed at producing a profit eg exhibitions, public running etc.
cheers, julian
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on Jun 5, 2015 8:50:40 GMT
So talking of public running we have our monthly open day tomorrow. The weathers looking good and with no cloud cover most families will go the beach, but just a bit of cloud cover and we face an onslaught!! As for membership of MES it seems there are two main "types" of members Those with model engineering skills , or at least transferable knowledge and skills from associated industry (which of course have markedly declined over the last 30 years)which they bring to bear upon the clubs infrastructure and stock Those with minimal skills of that nature but who have an interest in railways (predominantly it would seem) who purchase/build locomotives and seek the wise counsel and skills of the members described above. They of course gradually attain competencies and knowledge. I would suggest the first group are foundational but so to are those with time and energy to maintain and develop the infrastructure. Its just that the energy and resources are finite and at times the public appetite seems far from so.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2015 9:55:03 GMT
! As for membership of MES it seems there are two main "types" of members : Those with model engineering skills , or at least transferable knowledge and skills from associated industry (which of course have markedly declined over the last 30 years) which they bring to bear upon the clubs infrastructure and stock . Those with minimal skills of that nature but who have an interest in railways (predominantly it would seem) who purchase/build locomotives and seek the wise counsel and skills of the members described above. They of course gradually attain competence and knowledge. There is a real problem in model engineering now that many model engineers have learned everything they know from other model engineers and from articles in magazines written by model engineers - a learning cycle which has been repeated over several generations . Input from people with industrial training and experience has become less and less over the years and is now minimal . As regards clubs perhaps there is something to be learned from studying people with yacht club mentallity . There are lots of marina's around the coast where I live and all crammed with boats . Only problem is that few of the boats ever go anywhere - yachting now is about people wearing the most expensive designer deck clothing and either having cocktails on a static boat or parading in the club bar while boasting of their great knowledge of the sea . This happened at one yacht club in particular when committee was taken over by posers with money and genuine boat enthusiasts became more and more excluded by costs and snobbery . The ones excluded were the ones that actually went to sea and the few remaining DIY boat builders .
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on Jun 5, 2015 10:17:57 GMT
So what exactly do you think can be learnt from the yachting club experience? We would really welcome a cocktail after our open day tomorrow!!
|
|
|
Post by joanlluch on Jun 5, 2015 11:04:18 GMT
Out of curiosity. How much can you get from public runnings and open days?.
Or in other words, how much do you ask for a ride around a track in the UK or elsewhere?.
I understand the normal YEARLY membership fee is below 100 GPB, is that right?
In my country, model engineering clubs are non-profit organisations which have some constraints on ways of making business. To avoid legal issues clubs just ask for a 'voluntary' contribution to people asking for a ride. In most cases this turns to be no more than 1 EUR. So it is not possible to make any sensible income from it. In practice, public runnings are only held to satisfy the community and help keeping good relations with the municipality, which are the ones who basically finance the club activities and needs.
So again, how much is asked elsewhere for a ride around a circuit?
Thanks.
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on Jun 5, 2015 13:47:51 GMT
Hi there we offer a 7 minute ride around a 0.9km circuit for £1.50 with a discount ticket of 5 rides for £6 We have no requirements from the local council (municipality) for opening hours etc as we directly lease the land from a third party.
|
|
|
Post by joanlluch on Jun 5, 2015 16:30:10 GMT
Hi there we offer a 7 minute ride around a 0.9km circuit for £1.50 with a discount ticket of 5 rides for £6 We have no requirements from the local council (municipality) for opening hours etc as we directly lease the land from a third party. Then you need a really big number of passengers for this to be the main source of income...
|
|
penybontshed
Active Member
Exiled to sunny South Wales
Posts: 44
|
Post by penybontshed on Jun 5, 2015 21:32:00 GMT
And tomorrow we shall see them!
|
|
|
Post by suctionhose on Jun 6, 2015 9:17:13 GMT
We have three circuits around the same small plot if land with two trains operating on each.
Many people would ride three times just to tick them all off.
There are trains of 25 - 30 people departing every couple of minutes.
A ride takes 7 to 8 minutes departure to departure. But multiply be 6 trains and the volume is there.
|
|