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Post by ronhancock on Jun 16, 2015 21:08:04 GMT
Well so disappointed I have built my Black5 Boiler its took Months of Hard work.
So many problems to overcome and then to Fail.
Got leaks in Firebox from tubes in their.
I have worked hard to try sealing the boiler it but it can't get it to seal.
I have found it so hard to build but thought i had finished till i connected the Air Line.
I have found it almost imposable to get the right heat normally far to hot as to get it hot Enough i used Burning Torch with Oxygen and Acetaline.
I first used Tig weld but boiler tubes where not good so replaced with new pipes and silver solder.
I also had a problem with bridges only to find design has been changed to rods wish i had known.
It looks so easy and maybe would have been easier if i was not color blind as keep getting boiler to Hot.
Now it's leaking from side of plate welded and silver soldered .
If any one knows of some one who could finish this as a paid Job could they please let me know as pulling the last of my hair out.
I know realise i have taken on too much as a novice i NEED HELP PLEASE.
Ron
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Post by fostergp6nhp on Jun 16, 2015 21:42:15 GMT
Are you a club member as afaik the boiler needs to be inspected at various points during the build to comply with the regs. So you should be speaking with your club boiler inspector and there is usually plenty of help and advice in the clubs.
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 17, 2015 7:09:49 GMT
I have previously mentioned this. To build a boiler now you really need to be a member of a club, and TIG welding is still in it's infancy and most inspectors are still a bit unsure about it, plus you need to be able to provide all the necessary paperwork.
Being colour blind should not be a barrier to you. Temperatures for silver soldering are fixed, they don't vary with conditions, so even if you had monochrome vision you should still be able to silver solder. Infra red thermometers are inexpensive these days, they will give you another indication of the temperature, along with the usual flux flowing indicators.
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 17, 2015 9:11:12 GMT
Morning Gents,
At the NAME Boiler Inspectors Seminar held at Hereford a couple of months back, the panels advice regarding amateur-built TIG welded copper boilers was that club inspectors should most definitely not certify them. Only commercially produced, CE marked TIG welded copper boilers are acceptable.
Regards
NickM
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 17, 2015 14:23:19 GMT
Are you a club member as afaik the boiler needs to be inspected at various points during the build to comply with the regs. So you should be speaking with your club boiler inspector and there is usually plenty of help and advice in the clubs. Yes i have had it inspected at each stage they where happy with the progress but failed at almost the last Hurdle. The guy who makes Boilers for club Members has just stopped as he is so busy now making Traction engines and won't take on any more. Trust my luck. |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 17, 2015 14:33:50 GMT
I have previously mentioned this. To build a boiler now you really need to be a member of a club, and TIG welding is still in it's infancy and most inspectors are still a bit unsure about it, plus you need to be able to provide all the necessary paperwork. Being colour blind should not be a barrier to you. Temperatures for silver soldering are fixed, they don't vary with conditions, so even if you had monochrome vision you should still be able to silver solder. Infra red thermometers are inexpensive these days, they will give you another indication of the temperature, along with the usual flux flowing indicators. Hi i am a member of a club have been last two years I still don't understand the fuss over Tig welding it's very easy WITH THE CORRECT TIG WELDER. needs to be able to run at 225 ams water cooled. My problem was i tried my first weld doing the Boiler Pipes big mistake as the pipes are the hardest to do. If i was to do another then i would silver solder the pipes and definitely Tig weld the thick 3 mm copper as it's very easy to get very good penetration. I do think a lot of the criticism over Tig welding is people afraid of the new ways. And i think Tig is the way forward but one does need some experience building a boiler to know the pit falls. It's only my opinion but if you could cut through a weld after tig you would see what i mean. Having said that i still failed through lack of experience so will hold my head in shame. Ron |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 17, 2015 14:38:04 GMT
Morning Gents, At the NAME Boiler Inspectors Seminar held at Hereford a couple of months back, the panels advice regarding amateur-built TIG welded copper boilers was that club inspectors should most definitely not certify them. Only commercially produced, CE marked TIG welded copper boilers are acceptable. Regards NickM Nick i totally disagree if a boiler is Tig welded with correct Tig i am sure it's far stronger than a silver soldered one. Or is it that they just don't like change if you have good penatration and decent welds and passes the presure test where is the problem !! If it was so bad why are so many Boiler makers now making them with Tig welding. Ron |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 17, 2015 14:44:26 GMT
I have previously mentioned this. To build a boiler now you really need to be a member of a club, and TIG welding is still in it's infancy and most inspectors are still a bit unsure about it, plus you need to be able to provide all the necessary paperwork. Being colour blind should not be a barrier to you. Temperatures for silver soldering are fixed, they don't vary with conditions, so even if you had monochrome vision you should still be able to silver solder. Infra red thermometers are inexpensive these days, they will give you another indication of the temperature, along with the usual flux flowing indicators. Hi i know it should be that easy i have been spotless cleaning with wire wool then citric acid for several hours pressure washing the using easy flow flux. The flux never seems to flow right just goes into a powder and have to get it so hot to get solder to flow and when it does its more like a weld than a soldered Joint. I have been trying so hard to get it to flow and cannot understand why its not boiler is red before i even start. Wish i new why i am failing. Ron |
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 17, 2015 15:19:55 GMT
Ron
I am afraid you cannot disagree about what the panel said at the boiler seminar, I was there and that is what they said.
I am not suggesting that TIG welding copper is any way inferior to silver soldering, in fact, if done properly and with the correct equipment a welded join should always be stronger than a soldered one.
The problem arises from an insurance-based requirement for boilers to be made to a certain standard. For UK club based model engineers that standard is set by the regulating body of the Northern Association and Southern Federation (and others) in conjunction with the hobby's insurers. From my understanding, club boiler inspectors who fail to follow their recommendations when issuing boiler certificates run the risk of invalidating their clubs public liability insurance with regards to boilers.
We model engineers in the UK are very fortunate in today's highly regulated environment in that we are able to certify our own boilers. It will only take one serious injury from a boiler failure to change all that. There are rules attached to this, be they right or be they wrong, but if you don't like the rules, feel free to go and play another game.
There is a similar scenario regarding stainless / duplex steel; acceptable in other countries, certifiable at club level in Australia but definitely not certifiable under the club testing procedures in this country.
Regards
NickM
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Post by mutley on Jun 17, 2015 17:39:42 GMT
Ron your arrogance is astonishing. Quite a few members on here tried to give you advice which you don't appear to have listened to. Your the perfect example of why the NAME boiler inspector panel doesn't recommend home made TIG welded boilers. Nuff said.
Andy
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 17, 2015 19:50:27 GMT
Ron your arrogance is astonishing. Quite a few members on here tried to give you advice which you don't appear to have listened to. Your the perfect example of why the NAME boiler inspector panel doesn't recommend home made TIG welded boilers. Nuff said. Andy So perhaps you can tell me why our two boiler Inspectors passed all other welding on the boiler with flying colors. I am not arrogant just hate people afraid of progress. and to say people are not tig welding boilers shows you know nothing about most as they are using tig. I have been asking for prices and 4 so far are Tig welding their boilers even the tubes. #I find your reply v ery offensive get a life |
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 17, 2015 20:43:48 GMT
Ron,
Your boiler inspectors are wrong to have passed your boiler if it has any Tig welding. By your own admission, you are no expert and are unlikely to be a coded welder who has submitted test pieces of their work. They are ignoring the advice of the bodies I mentioned previously and in so doing are potentially invalidating your club insurance. Can I respectfully suggest that your boiler inspectors contact the Northern Association or Southern Federation, whichever your club is affiliated to, for clarification regarding TIG welded boilers.
As I said, nothing wrong with well executed TIG welding, but uncoded, amateur Tig welding is not acceptable to our governing bodies. They are the rules, if you don't like them, change hobbies.
NickM
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Post by mutley on Jun 17, 2015 21:07:22 GMT
Well said Nick.
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Post by AndrewP on Jun 17, 2015 21:14:00 GMT
Section 6.3 of the test code states:-
If welding is undertaken by a person who is not a coded welder the inspector shall require that weld samples be made available for inspection and testing prior to the commencement of the welding of the boiler, or that the welder shall have proof of test pieces being satisfactorily tested within the 12 months prior to the jointing being undertaken. Weld samples shall be tested by appropriate testing laboratories.
So how can the NAME boiler inspectors seminar completely ban certification of "amateur-built TIG welded copper boilers" by club inspectors. Is this just another case of "gold plating" of the regulations by a small group of individuals. At least Ron's inspectors appear to be applying the code as it is written.
Don't be dis-heartened Ron, your boiler inspectors are obviously a practical bunch, I am sure you can find a way to complete your boiler with their advice.
Andy
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 17, 2015 21:51:55 GMT
Andrew,
I don't know if you realise, but the 'small group of individuals' you seem to be deriding, liaise extensively with the companies that provide our insurance and whether you like it or not, their advice and recommendations should be heeded. The point of the annual boiler seminars are to keep club boiler inspectors up to speed on the continuing evolution of the boiler testing regulations. If Ron's 'practical bunch' of boiler inspectors had attended the seminar as I did, they should not be entertaining the inspection of an amateur Tig welded boiler. I've said it before and I'll say it again; if you don't like the rules, play a different game.
Nick M
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Post by mutley on Jun 17, 2015 22:00:26 GMT
AndrewP
Section 3.9 of said rules also stares that:
An inspector acting as a competent person who carries out an examination under the Written Scheme of Examination shall have such sound practical and theoretical knowledge and actual experience of the type of system which is to be examined as will enable defects or weaknesses to be detected which is the purpose of the examination to discover and their importance in relation to the integrity and safety of the system to be assessed.
c. The individual should know his own limitations and should not act outside his level of qualification or knowledge.
NAME are probably concerned that the necessary specialist skills, experience and knowledge for welding copper don't exist within clubs. Now if Rons boiler inspectors have this skill and knowledge that may be different matter and as such they may be authorised to test said boilers in the same way certain individual boiler testers can issue certs above 500bar/ltrs. It would be interesting to know if these inspectors have detailed knowledge of welding copper.
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NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 17, 2015 22:18:19 GMT
Ron's boiler inspectors should also be aware that not only should they have the necessary skills and knowledge, they should be able to prove this skill and knowledge. To be qualified to certify an amateur Tig welded boiler this proof would be current coding for welding copper.
Many clubs have specific insurance cover for their boiler inspectors, my club pays an additional premium for this specific cover. Certifying beyond your scope of experience would almost certainly invalidate this cover and make the boiler inspector personally liable for any claim for injury arising from a boiler failure.
Think on.
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 18, 2015 9:05:49 GMT
Section 6.3 of the test code states:- If welding is undertaken by a person who is not a coded welder the inspector shall require that weld samples be made available for inspection and testing prior to the commencement of the welding of the boiler, or that the welder shall have proof of test pieces being satisfactorily tested within the 12 months prior to the jointing being undertaken. Weld samples shall be tested by appropriate testing laboratories. So how can the NAME boiler inspectors seminar completely ban certification of "amateur-built TIG welded copper boilers" by club inspectors. Is this just another case of "gold plating" of the regulations by a small group of individuals. At least Ron's inspectors appear to be applying the code as it is written. Don't be dis-heartened Ron, your boiler inspectors are obviously a practical bunch, I am sure you can find a way to complete your boiler with their advice. Andy Your so right Ady i had to take two samples of 3mm test pieces i had Tig welded witch they cut in two to make sure i was getting good penetration. I am happy to say they both passed with flying color's They also made me take each part i welded for inspection to make sure each weld was good. I do feel after some of these comments they will not help increase members but put them of becoming a member of a model society. Luckily our main Boiler inspector actually works on full size Boilers so know's what he is Talking about. But over time we have had similar problems with people living in the past. Remember when Electricity was invented the first steam engine Telephones. So many people where in the Dark Ages and afraid of change i do think their are a few here to. and a Big thank you for your support a true Model Engineer with advice and support that we all need Ron |
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 18, 2015 9:08:27 GMT
Ron's boiler inspectors should also be aware that not only should they have the necessary skills and knowledge, they should be able to prove this skill and knowledge. To be qualified to certify an amateur Tig welded boiler this proof would be current coding for welding copper. Many clubs have specific insurance cover for their boiler inspectors, my club pays an additional premium for this specific cover. Certifying beyond your scope of experience would almost certainly invalidate this cover and make the boiler inspector personally liable for any claim for injury arising from a boiler failure. Think on. Yes Nick, I can design and manufacture by silver soldering, a copper boiler to AMSBC boiler code (which is far in excess of UK requirememnts which is why I mention it). I can therefore fulfill the requirement to be a tester for copper boilers. However. I can weld, I have to, I drive old land rovers! I can also design and in theory therefore manufacture a steel boiler. But I am not coded, and have not done weld samples. Does that mean I cannot therefore certify steel boilers? I'm not having a go, I'm just saying, that if you take the test code to the letter, most of the boiler inspectors couldn't actually test steel boilers |
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Post by AndrewP on Jun 18, 2015 10:25:03 GMT
So unless a boiler inspector has a current coding for tig welding copper boilers he cannot certify a tig welded boiler ? Bullshit - that would mean the vast majority of commercially built boilers couldn't be tested. Stop making up new rules just to make life more difficult.
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