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Post by steamcoal on Jul 25, 2015 8:52:26 GMT
Where may the best seller of this product be located in the UK?
Looking to find a supplier for lots of 1 kg in 1/8th in long sticks.
Hayden
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 25, 2015 10:30:22 GMT
If I remember correctly, Easyflo45 contains cadmium, so wont be available in the UK. However, after using Johnson-Mathey for many years, I now get all my silver-solder from Cupalloys. www.cupalloys.co.uk/home/Plenty of types, one identical to Easyflo45, and very helpful people. |
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Post by cupalloys on Jul 25, 2015 15:59:53 GMT
Hi Hayden, As Alan says cadmium bearing silver solder is no longer available in the UK or Europe. The nearest alternative in terms of brazing characteristics to Easiflo 45 is 455, a 55% silver alloy,and is readily available.
Remember the prices on the website include VAT (20%) which would not be applied to orders despatched to New Zealand. However there is additional carriage. For accurate price contact sales@cupalloys.co.uk.
Regards
Keith (retired!)
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Post by springcrocus on Jul 25, 2015 16:49:42 GMT
When did that happen (lucky fellow)? Steve |
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 25, 2015 22:25:58 GMT
Thankyou chaps, Keith and Allan.
We are thinking of building one or maybe two boilers here before the old guard depart, more as an exercise in techniqe and tutorship. If we do not then there is absolutly no link between those that have been there done that and those of us whom will be their sucessors.
In this case money is not the issue but time is running out. We have atleast one Maisie boiler needed and I could even manage a Railmotor boiler as the second project.
Seems crazy to build boilers for the heck of it but once those skills have gone we can only do it from the books. We have the Alec farmer book and others but actually doing it is the best option in our opinion.
Will look into the options for getting the materials and we have a few.
Hayden
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,900
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 25, 2015 22:49:59 GMT
hi hayden,
why did you ask about silverflo 45?
johnson matthey recommend only silverflo 55 and silverflo 24 for copper boiler work, of the non cadmium silver solders.
down under you can still order and get easyflo 2 and easyflo (both containing cadmium) and are by far the best for use on boiler work. i dont know why you would want silverflo 45 or 452, and you would need to check that it is suitable for boiler work and is suitably ductile.
cheers,
julian
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 26, 2015 5:47:51 GMT
If you are building a conventional boiler, stick to Easyflo as you can still get it.
That is ALL you need and will do the job well.
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Post by runner42 on Jul 26, 2015 7:49:02 GMT
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 26, 2015 9:25:23 GMT
Julian.
I was just enquiring about suppliers as the cost of Esyflo is rather exorbadant here and the UK option may be better even though it would be cadmium free for the quantity of 1 kg. There is some Esyflo here we know but like many items the stocks held in New Zealand are small and they would have to import it anyway. They have 16th but not 1/8th apparently.
As for the grade grant that you and Johnson M are correct. Judging by the replies there are varied answers to the question and we will work through it. Thank you.
Its not urgent at present.
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Post by ejparrott on Jul 26, 2015 9:25:41 GMT
I much prefer Easyflo 2, I'm not really getting on with the Silverflo equivalents at the moment, certainly wouldn't tackle a boiler at present.
How I wish I could import it from abroad...hey ho. Lot's of fabrications to be made before boilerwork comes around again so hopefully I'll have mastered it in due course.
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isc
Statesman
Posts: 708
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Post by isc on Jul 26, 2015 9:34:37 GMT
There are a number of places in NZ to get supplies BOC being but one, Trade Tools is another, you might have to look at Christchurch or Dunedin, don't know about Timaru.
isc
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,900
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Post by jma1009 on Jul 26, 2015 9:43:36 GMT
hi hayden,
as alan and ed state also, if you can get easyflo 2 down under then that would be my choice too.
as i understand it easyflo 2 can be ordered from the UK and sent abroad to countries without the cadmium ban. i would suggest emailing J-M (who are very helpful) and Cupalloys (who are also very helpful).
just because other grades have been used doesnt mean that the grades used are the most suitable. many of us remember Keith Wilson building a large number of commercial boilers with phosphorus containing cheap silver solder. a few years later it became apparent that what Keith was using was totally unsuitable particularly inside a firebox.
cheers,
julian
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 26, 2015 10:33:19 GMT
If we can get the old Esyflo 2 from the UK we can import it to NZ commercially by our company legitimately. Just need to find it first. Is it UK or USA origin made these days?
Ian, We have searched about and yes there is some but the prices are quite inflated and its all 1/16 th size. I think we bargined with them and got it down from $90 to $60 a length. Not sure what the UK chaps paid for it when it was last available. You know we pay a premium down here, if you can get it at all.
I have no reason to purchase from a New Zealand supplier with free UK shipping and if #2 can be still found this is the preferable choice.
Hayden
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 26, 2015 22:58:20 GMT
Brian.
In your boiler build you have just completed , did your AMBSC BI mention the prefered jointing material?
Do not think the joint material is described in the code?
Is it prescribed in the code which material should be used, Easyflow2 or other or did the BI tend to prefer one over the other? I guess both are available in Australia but #2 has the historical preference for obvious reasons.
Hayden
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Post by cupalloys on Jul 27, 2015 9:33:12 GMT
Let's try to keep this thread on track. We are talking about Easyflo 45 - basically easiflo2 with 3% more silver. It is an american thing.
Silverflo 45 is a totally different cadmium free alloy.
Hayden, there was considerable lobbying to secure the ban on the sale of cadmium bearing silver solder in Europe. Remember the UK model engineer was specifically targeted.
That ban includes any company, anywhere in the world supplying it into Europe. Even if it was for subsequent export outside the EU, - it can't happen. (Sorry Julian) Anyone any idea how long it takes and how much money it takes to fight large multi-national companies to achieve a reversal in Brussels/Strasbourg?
Nobody tried harder than CuP Alloys to find a loophole. There was none and we had very strong financial reason to find one. You may call it paranoia, I don't, but I will always be convinced that the "police" were waiting for CuP to try.
You are outside the EU. Contact any non-EU manufacturer directly. Ask them to supply you directly.
I suggest a non-EU company because any EU manufacturer has had the market ripped away from them and therefore there is now very little demand.
Look to the USA, South America, China, Norway,Turkey for your supplier.
Anyone struggling with using cadmium free alloys should simply adjust their heating technique. Fit a bigger burner? change the flux?
Silver soldering difficulties is the subject of a talk/lecture/discussion to be held at the Fosse in October.
Keith
Steve - Jane and I retired 2 years ago on Friday! The company is in good hands as Shaun and I go back many years. We have worked together in this business as both colleague and business partner. We still support CuP when and where necessary. I keep an eye on the forums, write articles and deliver talks/lectures. Should have done it years ago!
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Post by steamcoal on Jul 27, 2015 10:51:14 GMT
Keith.
Thank you for that summation of the situation.
So are you saying that there is absolutely no chance that there is any Easyflo#2 available or for supply from any EU company to places outside the EU. No stocks held and nothing in the back cupboard?
That settles that and saves me two phone calls to J-M and CupAlloy. All long gone by now.
We will look to the USA as one of the Lincoln companies advertises it. China.......ummmm? One of the US suppliers has a milspec given but I will leave that to the experts more knowledgable than I to pick through it.
Thanks Keith
P.S I am use to these regulatory upheavals as we went through the leadshot/steelshot shooting cartridges escipade some years ago. Now they are going back to leadshot as the science was flawed.
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Post by alanstepney on Jul 27, 2015 11:55:10 GMT
I was one of the people who were asked to contribute to the investigation into cadmium-bearning silver solder (as was Keith).
A waste of time as the decission had already been made!
I then did my best to stock up with Easyfly and similar, grabbing any I could find, so as far as I could discover, that was all there was.
So, as Keith said, you wont find any in the UK or EU.
The US sounds like the best option.
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Post by modeng2000 on Jul 27, 2015 13:04:04 GMT
I was one of the people who were asked to contribute to the investigation into cadmium-bearning silver solder (as was Keith). A waste of time as the decission had already been made! I then did my best to stock up with Easyfly and similar, grabbing any I could find, so as far as I could discover, that was all there was. So, as Keith said, you wont find any in the UK or EU. The US sounds like the best option. Is that why I couldn't find any Alan?  John |
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Post by trainman on Jul 27, 2015 16:44:00 GMT
I have 5 x 600mm lenghts of 1.56mm dia Easyflo No 2 from my late fathers collection of engineering bits and pieces. I assume that I am allowed to use it still for my own use, but if it is surplus to my requirements, am I allowed to sell it on or does the ban only apply to companies selling it? Got lots of other un-identified silver solder as well - is there any easy way of finding out what it is? One bundle (30 rods) is marked B.4, while the other bundle has a label that is illegible. The illegible one has a more silver colour. Seems a waste for it not to be used. Paul   |
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Post by cupalloys on Jul 27, 2015 18:31:22 GMT
Hi Paul.
Like you I have a few rods of cadmium bearing alloy for my own use.
The strict letter of the law prevents me from placing it "in the market". As an individual I can neither sell it nor give it away as a sample. Whatever you decide to do don't advertise the fact!
One of the more common reasons for a model engineer experiencing difficulties is because he does not know what he has. This is a throwback to when it was sold like fish - simply wrapped in newspaper. Things have moved on a lot. It is now sold clearly packaged so you know precisely what you are buying.
Colour means nothing. All that glitters etc .........
Unknown silver solder might attract a derisory offer from someone prepared to take a flyer.
Your best course of action is probably to scrap it. Contact John Betts Refiners in Birmingham.
Certainly a specialist company like CuP Alloys won't be interested.
Keith
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