MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6
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Post by MAX on Dec 27, 2016 17:01:58 GMT
Hi guys/gals,
After commenting in another thread in this forum, i figured i would start a dedicated thread for Don Young's black 5.
First off, i bought a mash up of bits and pieces of castings from Kijiji, thinking that i was getting a 3.5" gauge "Greene King" by Martin Evans. Turns out that i actually received a half-assed black 5!
It came with the set of drawings, however it is missing Dwg no 1, 7, and 9!
Does anybody have them scanned in?
I am in the process of completing my CAD drawings for all of the frames (Bogie frames, inner and outer tender frames, main frames -RH and LH, as well as the front and rear beams). They will be ready to go in .DXF format so that you can send the file to a local machine shop and get them cut out on the water jet.
I have many questions and i am hoping that this thread can bring together all the people with experience in this build so that we can create a community people and information dedicated to Don's Black 5.
First thing for me, I am aware that i can purchase the single pages that i need from AJReeves, however, its quite pricey for 3 peices of paper and then having them shipped to Canada. Does anyone have them scanned in that could send me the pages in question?
Regards,
Max
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,896
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 27, 2016 21:45:20 GMT
Hi Max,
I think your quibbling about the price of stuff from Reeves is an initial concern. Getting a full set of drawings and Don Young's construction series in LLAS I would consider a necessary prerequisite.
If you quibble about the above costs, how are you going to afford to make the boiler or get it made commercially?
I will trot out my usual advice that if this is your first loco, a piston valve design with a tapered boiler barrel and belpaire firebox is not the easiest to cut your teeth on.
Cheers, Julian
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MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6
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Post by MAX on Dec 28, 2016 0:56:10 GMT
My apologies, I didnt mean to quibble about the prices, even though that it cam e across that way. I was just wanting to see if anybody had any scan laying around that they could send my way.
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MAX
Member
In planning stages of Don young's Black 5
Posts: 6
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Post by MAX on Dec 28, 2016 1:05:15 GMT
Below is a picture of the AutoCad layout so far, as you can see, the main frames are not 100% complete. There is an incredible amount of extrapolating to do!
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Post by simplyloco on Dec 28, 2016 7:33:43 GMT
Hi Max, SNIP I will trot out my usual advice that if this is your first loco, a piston valve design with a tapered boiler barrel and belpaire firebox is not the easiest to cut your teeth on. Cheers, Julian Agreed: my teeth AND my gums are well lacerated! John
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 529
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Post by 44767 on Jan 3, 2017 10:20:00 GMT
I cut my teeth on Don's Black 5. I knew nothing of how to machine and fabricate when I started so everything was a new challenge. It was a great way to learn all the skill I have now.
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beekay50
Active Member
Finished building 3 1/2 in G Heilan Lassie with Don Young Black 5 in progress
Posts: 26
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Post by beekay50 on Jan 11, 2017 8:54:07 GMT
Hi I hope you don't mind me coming in on this thread, it will save me starting a similar thread. I am also building a Don Young Black Five. I purchased a part built one and on stripping it down only find the frames, wheels and cylinders are of much use, you can see that various people have had a go at it and given up after finding the skill levels to demanding. I should have known better after finally completing and steaming a part built 3 1/2 inch gauge Heilan Lassie as my first model, which had the same issues. I think the motto is never buy part built unless you take a vernier and a set of drawings and check it all first and never listen to what the salesman says no matter how genuine he sounds. But anyway I have a set of drawings and Don Youngs words to help and I have started by remaking the slides, motion plates and weigh shaft plates and this is where I would like some help. The way Don describes the fabrication of the weighshaft bearings and caps is very confusing what is the mandrel and end mill technique and is there a better way of making these items it seems like it will be very hit and miss with a lot of scrap in the bin unless one is extremely experienced, especially brazing up the parts. Are there any casting available for these items?
Cheers
Keith
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 529
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Post by 44767 on Jan 11, 2017 14:25:46 GMT
Well, it so happens that I have modeled the one for my class 3 tank and I'm pretty sure it has come directly from the LMS. It is so close that the CAD model I have for it can be changed very easily. This image shows waxes directly 3D printed in wax for investment casting. I'm away from my CAD computer at the moment but I could compare it to Don's drawings later to see how close it is. If you'd like castings rather than trying to fabricate, I should be able to help you out. I did fabricate mine for my model of 44767 but don't ask me to remember how I did it!
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beekay50
Active Member
Finished building 3 1/2 in G Heilan Lassie with Don Young Black 5 in progress
Posts: 26
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Post by beekay50 on Jan 12, 2017 4:01:10 GMT
Hi 44767,
yes I would be very interested as after brazing up the weighshaft mounting bracket last night and despite the screws and everything being dead square, after applying heat the mounting plate had moved about 1/32 out of true so the chances of fabricating a bearing housing seem pretty remote. I see you are in NZ. I am in Dubai and have colleagues from NZ who travel backwards and forwards frequently so delivery can be easily handled. So tonight it will be a belt with the hammer and cut or three on the mill and see how much metal is left!
Cheers
Keith
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on Jan 17, 2017 20:50:54 GMT
Upon looking at my OO scale one I was forced to enjoy a whole weekend at the Great Central Railway, and The Midhants to conclude that there are 70 rivet holes and some bolts for the angles on the tender at the tops of the frames!!! Yes, we get out once a week to help out at the track?? I am working on the angles at the moment and keeping warm doing them!!!
David.
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Post by doubletop on Jan 18, 2017 9:05:45 GMT
................ I purchased a part built one and on stripping it down only find the frames, wheels and cylinders are of much use, you can see that various people have had a go at it and given up after finding the skill levels to demanding. I should have known better after finally completing and steaming a part built 3 1/2 inch gauge Heilan Lassie as my first model, which had the same issues. I think the motto is never buy part built unless you take a vernier and a set of drawings and check it all first and never listen to what the salesman says no matter how genuine he sounds. ........................ Cheers Keith I had the same problem with my Dart. The problem with a part built or re-building a loco is knowing how accuratley the holes in the frames have been drilled. Mounting any part of the motion and assuming the holes in the frames are correct is a bit hit and miss, generally more miss. If you have DRO's on your mill you can plot all the holes and compensate for the errors when drilling the locating holes for any new components. I called it "Frame Mapping" in the article I did for ME. If anybody wants a copy, with the spreadsheets, I can send you one, just PM me. Pete
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beekay50
Active Member
Finished building 3 1/2 in G Heilan Lassie with Don Young Black 5 in progress
Posts: 26
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Post by beekay50 on Jan 19, 2017 11:58:36 GMT
'fraid no DRO everything manual but at least when I finally got the frames stripped down and placed them side by side, they seem to match its seems drilling was the only thing the original builder was good at as all the holes line up on both frames , probably drilled together. Thankfully the horns match but found the bearings are machined out of solid and do not have the retaining block, but will hope that this will be OK as I don't fancy taking the wheels off the axles. Beginning to think I will not have saved many years of the build programme when I have finished replacing all the parts that are just to rough to use.
Keith
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Post by doubletop on Jan 22, 2017 9:27:03 GMT
Keith
The frames drilled as a pair is good but without knowing whether all the holes are in the correct locations the motion components can't be accuratley. If you have the frames out and are able to locate all the holes accuratley there is an opportuinty to get the valve gear in the best possible state. But it does require DRO's to do it.
When Don Ashton gave me his Dart valve gear design some of the trunions had been barely moved 25thou. Some of the holes in my frames were up to 80thou out from the Martin Evans designed locations. To make Don's design fit my dodgy frames I was able to make new components with the holes drilled to match the missalinged holes in the frames but locate them correcty with respect to the drive line and driven axle.
Pete
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Post by 4fbuilder on Jan 22, 2017 12:02:51 GMT
Good morning all,
From the previous posts they only serve to confirm my thoughts over many years that the purchase of a "rolling chassis" etc can be frught with danger, I concluded that I'll make my own mistakes, I don't need someone else's wasting my time! DRO isn't a necessity, a few years ago I built a couple of Don Young's 4F's as a pair, all marked out on the bench with the usual hand tools etc, with the chassis finished, wheels fitted etc, I could put the side rods on either locomotive, I could mix the pairs of side rods, even fit them upside down, the side rod bushes were straight off the lathe with no easing. What is essential is a consistent level of accuracy at all times and ensuring the frames and horn faces etc are dead square. There's no need for all the modern super-duper all singing and dancing machinery, just keep that level accuracy, but what I will say is if you do have access to modern DRO,CNC machinery 3D CAD and 3D printing etc then go for it, it's only another method of getting to the end product.
Regards,
Bob
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beekay50
Active Member
Finished building 3 1/2 in G Heilan Lassie with Don Young Black 5 in progress
Posts: 26
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Post by beekay50 on Jan 22, 2017 13:06:39 GMT
Bob,
Yes tend to agree, it is many years since I completed my apprenticeship but still able to hold a few thou manually, and that is what gives the satisfaction. This weekend set up the cylinders, new slides, new motion bracket and new weigh shaft bracket and all within a few thous of Dons drawings on both frames so reasonably confident that all will be well in the end and I will be able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but still a long way to go and many more bridges to cross. But with all the problems it did roll freely when it was assembled with the key motion elements in place so once everything is remade to drawing should be OK. I think the biggest frustration for me is that somebody calling themselves a model engineer could produce such appallingly bad workmanship, how can you make a 0.25 in dia piston rod 5 thou oversize in the middle while the ends are 3 thou undersize?? Can only assume he couldn't have had access to 0.25 bar and turned it out of something larger without a steady.
Cheers
Keith
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on Jan 27, 2017 23:16:36 GMT
Yes, there are long lists of part built locomotives that never seem to find buyers and this confirms why they are there.
In the time since Don did his design to today many modern assisting things have happened. Foremost that digital photography is now able to help in getting details just right. Next, in line are digital scanners so that dome or buffer stock can now be made down in New Zeeland for us and posted back. Most OO scale models are being done this way from full size! Similar someone building a Five in a distant country can be sent the relevant photos in moments from us to assist.
I checked past our local Ikea and found some 2 mm sheet metal lovely stuff part of something and a bargain ready for the stretchers. A neat fold included! I am just waiting for the warmer weather to start bashing!
David.
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 529
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Post by 44767 on Feb 11, 2017 7:26:59 GMT
I've modeled up the weighshaft bearing bracket for from Don's drawings. They are different to the class 3's in that they are narrower and there are two per side. Anyway they are a simple thing to cast now that I have the model done. There are two types too, one with a longer mounting flange. Machining allowance will be included and if it's deemed advantageous, I can cast them all joined together to make machining easier. Cheers, Mike
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44767
Statesman
Posts: 529
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Post by 44767 on Mar 12, 2017 1:22:52 GMT
I've been working on the horn blocks for a model which is to the later version of the frames. This particular one is for the plain bearing axleboxes. I started with the model I had for the class 3 tank guides and modified it to suit. I used a feature in SolidWorks which allows an image to be imported into a sketch. It can be scaled to the size of the sketch and can be used to trace around the profiles etc. very easily. Here's a couple of shots showing what I mean. It shows up well when the model is in wire frame. At the same time I'm doing the spring hangers. Now to make sure they will suit the Don young drawings and modify to suit. The frames themselves are different to accommodate the different hangers so the choice has to be made early if you're to go this way. Mind you the full size ones had whole sections welded in to make this change for those locos which had cracking problems.
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 688
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Post by oldnorton on Mar 13, 2017 17:22:26 GMT
Those spring hangers look very nice for the later Black 5, and the full-wrap horns. Anyone who wants to model a Black 5 in the BR era could use those spring hangers and horns on an earlier model since it seems that they were all upgraded during and post war. The horns for the trailing axle remained as a pair of horn keeps however (if that is the right term) because the firebox is in the way of a full horn.
I like the way you have 'bolted' the 3D images onto the 2D drawings! You obviously have the posh version of Solidworks.
Norm
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Post by ramdango on Mar 17, 2017 17:46:49 GMT
44767, are you planning on selling castings for the late Blk 5 spring hangers and horns that you've designed?
Regards, Ramdango.
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