Thanks Jim - I LOVE that! It keeps everything concentric. Yes! Yes! Yes! I wish I had made my smokebox of steel now. Tempted to make a new one. I do have a bit of a problem in that I do not have much space between the bottom of my smokebox and the cylinder exhaust ports. I will check on my drawings. I am waiting for rivets to arrive from China - don't know what they will be like - so decided to make the door dart and hinges.
Yes, as John states, Jim's arrangement is 'pretty damn neat!'
I adopted a different approach in that the steam pipe to the cylinders has a threaded nut to secure it to the bottom of the smokebox with the addition of a curved washer underneath (so similar to Jim's exhaust manifold fixing).
My exhaust manifold is quite different to Jim's, and the saddle base forms a tight fit over same and the steam pipe, and the drum type smokebox forms a further tight fit over both.
In both our cases the steam pipe is forward of the exhaust manifold, in my case the steam pipe is as far forward as the steam chest front wall allowed, and an extension to the saddle in the vicinity of the steam pipe is required, though this can hardly be seen under the curved top of the saddle.
Can I make a couple of further points?
Firstly, the A1X smokebox door (and the smokebox) is of greater diameter than the A1 type. The smokebox door diameter of the A1X type is proportionately greater. Yours looks not quite big enough in diameter.
Secondly, you have not shown the register on the smokebox front for the door.
Thirdly, the smokebox door dart handles have a taper on them, certainly on the A1X type.
I think your cut away on the saddle top as per fullsize is commendable in achieving accuracy but causes problems in miniature. I have strong views on smokebox draughting and it is something I will not compromise upon in order to achieve a satisfactory draughting arrangement and easy fitting of all the parts and easy taking apart so that the smokebox can easily be lifted off with the boiler and easily re-assembled.
Hope you will view the above in the constructive spirit they are intended from one Terrier builder to another!
No Julian, I certainly do not take comment as non-constructive. I is good to hear other peoples' views. I have had to work on the A1X version as best I can, as I have not got any drawings, only sketchy measurements I took many years ago - so any help in that direction is well received. There will be differences in the cab for example. I am not sure whether to put all the vacuum brake gear on which spoils the look of the loco in my opinion with that ugly pipe protruding from the cab. We shall have to see how I feel when I get to it!
Regarding the smokebox door - you are very observant as this is the A1 door! I have not made the A1X door yet. The handles are tapered, though not by much. They actually have 1/2 degree taper on them which makes them about 1/8" diam at the base to 5/32" diam at their tips. Does not look much but these were measured on Boxhill (1" at the base and 1.125" and !.25" resp at their tips) and the best I could do on the original drawings. I did not measure the diameter of the door, which is something I must do when I go to look at the brake gear. I was contemplating making a new smokebox in steel - it depends on how much larger in diameter the A1X is. Do you have measurements of the 'Fenchurch' smokebox - I would be very grateful? I have taken measurements from a small drawing I got hold of, as I did not measure the original for some reason. For simplicity I have made the boilers the same except for the position of fittings (dome, injectors etc).
In my case the saddle comes away with the smokebox - eight bolts hold it to the frames. Also the original A1 boiler was designed with one gauge glass and two test cocks, though they were soon removed and replaced by a second gauge glass. Mine is as originally drawn with one gauge glass.
I think moving the steam chest inlet forward is a good idea - it certainly makes cleaning the flues easier. I have taken a slightly different route and made the steam pipes hug the inside of the smokebox.
Any A1X deviations from the A1 would be gratefully received, though my chassis are pretty much exactly the same to simplify construction. I have not enlarged the cylinders, for example, so I suspect there are many other irregularities which I shall just have to live with. So many modifications were made - it is a minefield!
I have a couple of pictures of 'Fenchurch' here, presumably taken at different times when the smokebox has been changed or repaired. One shows flush riveting, and the one I took in the 1980s proud rivets. Being lazy it would be simpler to go for the flush rivet version. Comments would be appreciated - no prize but a grateful thanks to the winners! I know a lot of you have built the 5 inch gauge version and have been reading all the build notes with interest. Very helpful they are too.
If your A1X Terrier is to be Fenchurch when in lined BR livery then it should be relatively easy to establish when Fenchurch was repaired in BR days and tie this up with pics of the loco for the relevant periods. The Don Bradley RCTS volume is quite detailed, plus the Bluebell ought to have the record cards.
I am not a great fan of the 'Marsh'/Basil Field cast iron chimney Fenchurch sported when becoming A1X in 1913 till altered by the Bluebell to a pseudo A1 a few years ago.
Thanks Julian - I agree, the Stroudley chimney is much nicer, but I am afraid the ugly one will have to go on the A1X, but I shall have the Stroudley one on the A1! Thanks for the info. I am hoping to get over to the Bluebell when the weather improves, so will see what they have. In the meantime, you have done some extensive research, so I would be glad to hear of any major pitfalls before I fall into them! Both A1 and A1X! The cab roof I notice is a major one if they followed Martin Evans design, and much harder to achieve. The Stroudley one is neat but there is a hell of a lot of small rivets!
I am going to try and put up a video of the A1X chassis running, if I can get the file small enough. The A1 runs pretty well identically except it has the crosshead pumps to contend with.
I will email you as I suspect the details of individual Terriers may become very boring on here, though our new moderator George Ray might disagree as he has driven Fenchurch on the Bluebell! Ben on here has also footplate experience of the Bluebell Terriers, and Dan Calcutt (steamingmess on here) has the same on the IOWSR Terriers. Fred Bailey of the Bluebell has also been very helpful same as George, Ben and Dan.
Stepney is one of 2 preserved Terriers that have the raised buffer positions for motor train working, the other being Martello 662. Boxhill was the same before being restored in 1946/7.
The IOW ex IWCR Terrier A1X rebuilds add a further complexity to the history. The ex FYNR No.2 then No.8 rebuild was initially my candidate for my own build as 'Freshwater' ex 'Newington' 46 was reunited with it's Stroudley chimney later on at Ryde Works, but I decided upon Stepney as preserved as it was the first steam loco I had a trip behind on the Bluebell in the very early 1970s when I was 4 years old. But I remembered Newington outside the Hayling Billy pub, then worked many years later on Hayling Island, commuting daily via the Hovercraft from 20 St Johns Hill Ryde within a stone's throw from Ryde St John's Station.
I still have the correspondence with Don Young when he first put to print his Newport design.
In the 1920 and 30s the SR undertook a number of subtle changes to the A1X Terriers. Couplings were changed from the LBSCR type to the SR type. The buffer castings were replaced with a plain shank. The lubricator on the right hand side of the smokebox was removed. Boiler changes resulted in a variation of boiler mountings for the steam valves for the injectors. But generally what Marsh schemed out in 1911 for the A1X rebuilds and put into effect by Lawson Billinton stayed pretty much unaltered till 1963.
Thanks Julian - I suppose one can get obsessed with accuracy and it can spoil the fun of making the engines. I will take all the advice I can from what I can see are very experienced engineers on this forum, and then decide the detail level to achieve. I keep quoting my old friend Bill Perrett, but he was very similar with his 1500. He was a master at getting the balance of detail correct without going overboard. I think part of his success was that what detail he did add was perfectly in-scale and accurate.
I don't know if these video files will work, but this is just to show that the chassis really do work, and the valve gear and motion work are exactly to scale, taken straight off the original Stroudley drawings. The load is a bit uneven, as it is me grasping the back LH wheel in a piece of thick rag. Not the best way to treat a new engine!
You have to click on the picture to run the video.
There is something lovely and memorising about watching, and listening, to a loco ticking over on air. It looks great, can't wait to see more of these lovely locos!
I do have a collection of photos I took of Stepney for Julian when over the Bluebell last year, they were on photobucket but now lost so I will find them and try get them over to you at some point, if you drop me your email address I can do this and hopefully they will be of some use.
Thanks for the kind words Julian and Adam - it gives me encouragement to keep going. I am stuck a bit at the moment, wondering the simplest way of making the smokebox connections. I will resolve it eventually, but with the A1 version, things are going to be a bit tight as regards flue sweeping. Regarding the chassis, I have not been able to fit the reversing lever yet as it is attached to the cab front locker, though I think to make it more rigid I will have a support inside the box. The lever is a piece of Stroudley art in itself!
Thank you Adam for the offer of some photos - the wonders of digital photography! I will send you details in a message. Ed
Has anyone got details of either 5" or 7.25" 'Terrier' chimneys. The reason I ask is that I am not sure whether to use a parallel steel tube for the inner liner and have the chimney slide over it as I have done on my other engines (they have short chimneys though). The full size chimney is slightly tapered inside. The experience of those who have 'Terriers' running would be greatly appreciated. Ed
After some discussion with Julian I have had a go at redesigning the chimney. The difficulty is keeping the chimney within scale, but I think by using steel to keep the strength, I can manage it by stepping the 'showy' bit, which will just in effect be a cover. I wait to see what Julian has to say.
I finally got the connections sorted - not too happy about the closeness of the steam inlet to the flues. I may yet redesign and move the inlet to the front of the steam chest - very little room to play with there as the incline of the cylinders brings them VERY close to the smokebox.
I think Ed has done some very impressive drawings. I spent far more time pondering various drawings and research than it took time to make my 5"g Stroudley chimney.
Ed has now incorporated my emails in a final arrangement I consider very good. The oily gunk on the exhaust will smooth out the divergent to parallel bore to a smooth taper inside. He now has a sort of Jos Koopmans smokebox draughting of the 21st century on a 19th century loco.
Thanks Julian - I would have been quite unaware of the modern draughting arrangements had it not been for you and this wonderful forum where one can discuss with so many knowledgeable modellers. I still have some pipework hurdles to overcome, but hopefully I can post these tomorrow evening if I get a good day in the workshop. I have decided not to go down to Devon due to the inclement weather.
Thanks for all the 'thumbs-up!
PS. I have to take the plunge and make the big hole in the top of the smokebox. I have nightmares about getting it in the wrong place!