uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,807
|
Post by uuu on Jan 27, 2018 10:02:19 GMT
What the yacht clubs have round here, which the ME club lacks, is a bar...
...which does add to the cost of boating as a hobby, but might account for some of its popularity
Wilf
|
|
smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
|
Post by smallbrother on Jan 27, 2018 11:47:55 GMT
That's an interesting point you make Peter. I too was going to build a boat, a Seabird Yawl, lovely lines (to my eye) and very seaworthy. It was my son who said, 'Buy a boat and get out on the water while you can.' We ended up with a 2 berth fibreglass, 18' Careel trailer sailer, a tupperware boat as the traditional wooden boat owners call it. The point of this is that boat ownership and participation has boomed as a result of being able to buy affordable of the shelf boats. So maybe the access to well made ready to run locomotives from China could see more getting involved in the hobby. Jim I struggle to see the negatives in this. There are cheaper machines about, access to expert advice is available literally around the world, so a determined builder has less barriers now then ever to getting a project to completion. Pete.
|
|
|
Post by simplyloco on Jan 27, 2018 12:02:49 GMT
I struggle to see the negatives in this. There are cheaper machines about, access to expert advice is available literally around the world, so a determined builder has less barriers now then ever to getting a project to completion. Pete. I can. Put an idiot unsuitable person to work on any machine tool, and he/she will hurt themselves or ruin the work, or both, regardless of the level of supervision! John
|
|
|
Post by runner42 on Jan 27, 2018 21:23:17 GMT
I struggle to see the negatives in this. There are cheaper machines about, access to expert advice is available literally around the world, so a determined builder has less barriers now then ever to getting a project to completion. Pete. I can. Put an idiot unsuitable person to work on any machine tool, and he/she will hurt themselves or ruin the work, or both, regardless of the level of supervision! John John this is true, but people who are interested in building their own tend to approach the task with some caution if their own inexperience would cause some concern. Your example is probably applicable to someone not committed to the task and not aware of the potential problems. Brian
|
|
|
Post by suctionhose on Jan 31, 2018 22:13:33 GMT
Commercial models will appeal to some as do kits, secondhands and commissioned builds. Room for all and more the merrier!
Those that want to build do so with varying degrees of commercial input and uptake of modern techniques. That's accepted practice though opinions differ on what is 'proper'.
What possible comparison could be made at HotPot between the Chinese 14xx with etched rivets and the highly detailed 2-8-2 (59 class) for which the builder made the patterns, poured the metal and machined every part?
There's no comparison at all! The motives are totally different. Neither person would do what the other did.
However, both can enjoy the facilities and the event and the friendships. That is the heart of MES's and diversity only increases the numbers and strenghtens the movement.
Personally I have bought an engine once or twice. Could never love 'em. They werent of my hand! Like making my own but recognise a balance must be struck regarding outsourcing & sensible use of time. What that balance is is a very individual matter...
|
|
dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
|
Post by dscott on Feb 1, 2018 0:43:22 GMT
I have just got a part built Jinty Yes the first locomotive I went behind back in 1970 at the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. A Hornby one came for my 11 th Birthday!! My Chinese straight out of a box came from Dapol! Superb for checking what is wrong on Martin Evanses?? In fact very easy as he published photos of how it should be opposite the badly done drawings? Only 40 years to get it right?
I have had several drives of the 1400 round our track in Reading and they run very well! Someone else got a Modelworks and built it and it does not go at all!!
Own patterns and drawings is my 4409 many years and water under various bridges?? Building and driving and enjoying banter with a full mug of tea! Perfect. Laying track and digging holes and raking leaves and banter of a Wednesday also perfect!
David and Lily.
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Feb 3, 2018 6:21:27 GMT
I guess in the end whats the difference between cheque booking modelling "model engineer" built locos and cheque book "Chinese"??
If you haven't built it, you haven't built it no matter what the origin.
Suppose its what others think and not what the owner thinks in terms of its origin. Considering I have purchased my M.E built locos, am I any better than the guy who has bought Chinese, maybe not.
I can say though that when I have been asked if I built it by Little Johnny the only comfort is that I can say it was built by a model engineer....somehwere,for he is only a name on the original boiler certificate and that is a little comforting that there has been a past history somehwere but I doubt I will ever discover it.
Maybe if I ever manage to build and finish a loco I might change my thought on the matter.
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Apr 6, 2018 10:33:22 GMT
I found this link regarding model manufacturing in China and it gives some insight into the complexity and scale of miniature production that is sourced these days from the Far East.
It is quite enlightening when you think of its relationship to the wider world.
Its no match-box toy and I asked myself could this really be done anywhere else these days? Just look at the labour content.
Take a look.
|
|
|
Post by joanlluch on Apr 6, 2018 11:20:10 GMT
I found this link regarding model manufacturing in China and it gives some insight into the complexity and scale of miniature production that is sourced these days from the Far East. It is quite enlightening when you think of its relationship to the wider world. Its no match-box toy and I asked myself could this really be done anywhere else these days? Just look at the labour content. Take a look. I’m interested in seeing this. Did you forget to post the link?
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Apr 6, 2018 11:29:24 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 6, 2018 18:32:57 GMT
Dark here too down under in the land of Oz and to make matters worse I can't sleep ... 4:31 am. Good to see you found the missing link Jim
|
|
|
Post by steamcoal on Apr 9, 2018 21:25:57 GMT
|
|
|
Post by simplyloco on Apr 9, 2018 21:30:42 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 9, 2018 21:45:22 GMT
Plus one more. Jim
|
|
|
Post by joanlluch on Apr 9, 2018 21:58:15 GMT
Near my location, there's a factory of candy and other sweets from a know German brand, Haribo, where workers, generally females, tend to develop hand and wrist issues such as carpal tunnel syndrome, after many years working there. I do not know what's exactly their activity there, but it must be something highly repetitive to produce such kind of problems. Not that different that these worker intensive Chinese factories, I suppose.
Joan
|
|
|
Post by austerity on May 7, 2019 2:34:57 GMT
Sorry,i`m a bit late to this topic.My problem is time is now getting a bit short to carry on my long term project to finish my Clarkson 5" WD 2-10-0.I look at Silvercrests locos & wonder.I do regret selling my Simplex some years ago though.
Ray
|
|
|
Post by David on May 8, 2019 23:26:35 GMT
I think there will still be people who want to make their own, although it may well get more difficult for them with a reduction in the number of people around who know how to do so to teach them. I hate saying my red train was built by someone else, but I'd also never bother to even start a loco, never mind hopefully finish one without the ton of support and encouragement I'm getting from local club members. But there was one guy I heard of who built a large pacific to mediocre plans basically on his own with little outside support. I was amazed, but it shows some people have the desire and determination to build it rather than buy it.
Some people will always want to build things with their hands. Despite the wide availability of RTR models in the model railway scales there are still plenty of kit and scratch builders.
I'm sure the hobby will change. Affordable CNC, 3D printers, not so much exposure to steam engines of whatever type, etc will all mean future model engineers (or makers) might make different things and do it differently, but they'll still build things. And who cares how other people pursue their hobby? If they're enjoying it that's all that matters.
For now from what I've heard there's plenty of tweaking and upgrading to be done on the current generation of Chinese made locos so owners will need to get some skills or call on club members which will keep some amount of hands-on experience going.
Even Polly locos are still not at the "bolt together and it works" level if the ones that have been bought by our club members are any indication. But it's pretty amazing you can buy a loco kit that mostly does bolt together and work. It's not a moment too soon for them to be working on more scale outline locos given the Chinese are supplying the same in RTR form.
|
|
|
Post by andyhigham on May 9, 2019 18:51:11 GMT
People used to doubt the quality of Japanese products, nowadays the "Made in Japan" is a seal of quality. Not long ago I looked over an O.S. kit loco, fantastic engineering and top quality. Possibly in years to come Chinese locos will be the same
|
|
|
Post by David on May 9, 2019 23:19:22 GMT
I don't think anyone doubts the capability of China, they've got to the moon and make aircraft carriers and fighter jets. The current crop of RTR locos (and most cheap stuff we buy like our machine tools) are designed and built down to a price rather than up to a particular level of quality. I have no doubt there are seriously good CNC machines to be had in China.
The locos look good because I assume the external details are fairly cheap and easy to get right (relatively, of course). The ease of manufacture aspect is probably more apparent inside the frames and cylinder/steam chest castings.
I was shown a video of a BR 4 that wheezed around a track and had constant blow-by etc. The picture inside the steam chests wasn't pretty. It still worked and looked good, but if you'd built it yourself you'd be disappointed in how it went. You can make new valves but redoing the ports would be a big job.
I think the bigger problem is for people who would like to make things to sell. The entry of the Chinese will make it way more difficult for them. I feel sorry for Polly, or anyone who makes stationary engines for sale.
|
|
dave f
Active Member
Must focus on the Princess, resist temptation to tinker with new toy...
Posts: 45
|
Post by dave f on May 10, 2019 12:35:29 GMT
I’ve thought long and hard about how to write something on this topic. You will find many questions in this diatribe, but these are rhetorical in nature. Apologies if this is a long post, but it’s something that’s been going round my brain for a while and is not meant as a dig at anyone and their associated opinions.
As a newbie to the hobby I was very tempted by a RTR model as currently advertised, both from the UK and from overseas. I spoke with the Chinese manufacturer in question and all their distributors
I was tempted because I had little time, no skills or facilities to build a model of my own. The prospect of undertaking such a task, besides anything, was mildly terrifying if I’m honest. I wanted something I could play with and hopefully inspire my kids without it becoming something I couldn’t complete/finish. “daddy, why did you spend £ xxx’s on a paperweight”
In the end, I decided on buying a 2nd hand model due to quality concerns of the current tranche of Chinese made locos and due to financial constraints, so I settled on my princess marina which I purchased from a known dealer (that I wouldn’t go to again).
My concerns about quality weren’t flippant off hand remarks about Chinese products, more I couldn’t justify the cost relative to the skills I would potentially need to rectify the shortcomings of these current RTR locos.
As I mentioned in another post, Keith Appleton did a great video series called ‘Modifying a 5in Gauge 14xx’ all about this. It’s worth a watch because he has a very balanced view on it all.
Having read numerous ramblings on this matter about it being the negative effects on the hobby/industry etc I found myself reflecting on my experiences of joining a model engineering society and getting involved as well as formulating my opinion about it all.
So I thought I’d break it down in to parts
Asian manufacture:
it’s here to stay.
We all have embraced it over the years whether it be Japanese electronics and cars in the 80’s & 90’s, Korean cars since the turn of the century, kids toys made in Taiwan in the 80’s. While the Chinese products may have some issues, they’ll improve with time. I remember sneering at the first Hyundai car I saw…..
Whether we like it or not, most, if not all of us are all driven by cost in some part of our lives when it comes to purchasing goods, which supports the outsourcing to Asia or other Low Cost countries.
How many people would buy a British made TV at twice the price of a Samsung??
I’ve been working in Oil and Gas for Twenty years. I clearly remember when Chinese manufactured equipment and components started to become available (early 2000’s). We were not allowed to purchase any Chinese sourced material for projects without written consent from the Client. Now probably 30-40% is Chinese sourced. I often have more headaches with European suppliers these days.
They will only become more prolific
Impact to the current suppliers/manufacturers:
by my reckoning, Kingscale/Silvercrest have sold 250-300 RTR ride on models since their inception (excluding Modelworks etc), yet every established supplier I’ve spoken with over the last 6 months has their workshop fully booked for 12-18 months or is increasing their product ranges.
Try ringing SRS to book some time in their machine shop…..
How long does it take to get a boiler made these days.?
How much did the Polly/SRS loco’s affect the traditional castings/drawings based industry and what was the reaction from the establishment at the time?
I personally haven’t seen any negatives to the hobby due to the proliferation of their products.
I’ve seen happy active MES members who didn’t have the time or skill for scratch building, happily pulling crowds of people round on their steamers on Sunday afternoons.
From what I’ve read/understand, many of the traditional suppliers are still peddling old drawings full of errors and potential headaches.? In 2019…….
With the prevalence of modern online information/resources, any new person considering entering into the hobby would research and quickly find these issues and could very easily be put off from a 1st build.
While I appreciate the challenges associated with drawings update (I spent many years drafting), you can’t have your cake and eat it.
Combine that with ME/BA/whatever thread types with their associated tapping/clearance sizes when you grew up as the metric generation.
Trust me, scratch building to a newbie can be a very daunting prospect.
So it’s natural for people to consider an easier entry alternatives.
Impact to the hobby:
A common thread I have noticed with Model Engineering Societies is the concern about lack of new/younger members.
Whether we like or not, younger generations have a differing philosophy on things. Whether we want to accept it or not, a good % of the wider society of which we are all a part of and have helped create has developed a youth that wants instant access to things, has less time (theoretically) to devote to hobbies and exists within different social dynamics (wives not so happy to constantly being dumped with the kids etc).
My experience is that there are always a good number of people who don’t fit this general mould and who manage to make time and have the inclination to do things the more hands on way.
Prior to moving overseas and starting the rebuild process, I was actively involved in my club.
I re-clad the signal box for them, I helped out as much as possible at public running days, my 6 & 8 year old kids took tickets from the public and ushered them onto the waiting trains (under guidance of course). My wife even got her driving licence at the club to drive electric locos.
When working at my local railway on Public days, I often spoke to visiting people of similar age to myself, and generally they’d love to get involved but who considered building a locomotive unachievable for them and therefore the idea was discounted.
But if RTR models get new blood onto the tracks and into club membership, it can only be a bonus. As much as engines and drivers, MES’s need support to maintain the track, buildings, cut the grass, paint the fence. This is as much where todays clubs struggle. Many of the guys doing maintenance at my club were 75 in the shade, bless them.
By buying my Princess Marina, am I any different from buying a RTR model from China.
I didn’t build it and can never claim to. Does that mean I’m less of an enthusiast?
I’m 44 years old and wasn’t born or involved in the ‘old scene’ as it appears to be referred to. Doesn’t make me any less passionate about what it is today, what I would like to assist in preserving and how best I can provide support for the future.
It was only after having bought the Princess Marina, that I grew the confidence to take it apart and understand how it works and how it was made. What I learned from this gave me enough confidence to purchase a part built 14xx Dart (this will be my next thread once the princess is finished. Praying I haven’t bitten off more than I can chew)
Who’s to say that someone buying a RTR model having some of the current issues won’t be inspired to take it apart, fix its shortcomings and make it run properly (especially after coughing up lots of dough initially).
What would be their next challenge with the knowledge they gained from that experience?
Would it potentially get them to spend a few hours per month at a local club painting the fence, repairing the track…..?
I think we need to be objective about the future. The point made above about Yacht clubs is excellent and is something I also have personal experience of.
Evolution is inevitable, but from what I have seen, as long as people have the will to pass on skills and experience without judgement or prejudice, the hobby will thrive, albeit maybe not exactly as it was 40 years ago. The only way for this to happen is for there to be people onto whom skills and experience can be passed.
To me, MES’s closing due to lack of membership is the death of our hobby, not a potential new entry method for new members.
|
|