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Post by Oily Rag on Jun 24, 2018 21:57:09 GMT
It is all a question of economics, it has to be and it is a hard question to unpack. I speak of this because I design and produce steel investment castings for the niche bespoke bicycle frame making world and sell the castings via an agent in the USA and the UK and via me for down under, and it takes me 3-5 years to just recoup my costs. A business cannot operate as a charity. For a business/individual to invest many hours, maybe hundreds of hours on drawings and patterns and produce castings, and also the marketing of these (and do not underestimate the time cost spent of marketing) and then the return on the $ and time investment is the sale of half a dozen castings each year, it is a failure for business sustainability. If the castings were going out the vendors door on pallets each year then it would be full steam, but they don't and I find it annoying when some "creaky" moans about a castings price today when they recall buying a casting 25 years ago and it cost them 1/10 of todays price......... Sigh! This = lazy thinking and not able to devote thought to the appreciation of the difficulties. I have heard and read many moans about the cost and quality and the availability of castings but crikey, one does a part run at a foundry with the balance of quantity/cost decision and then they sit on the shelf with a depreciation of 10% per year, it is no wonder ME firms want to be rid of the cost and pain of castings, especially a part that may sell 2 - 6 of each year. Foundries are not charities either and small runs are not worth the costs of firing up for a pour. (generally ME oddities are tacked onto another part pour) Mike's question is a hard one, because most loco builders are not the high income professionals, many are retirees etc, so cost is very important. How much value does one give to a sweet casting is a very hard question. Some will pay gold coin, some 50 cents. How much return does one give to the skill of the designer/producer. That is a hard one for Mike as he trying to feel if the ME mob has a qty of punters who will pay what is required for the value of these castings. What is the market and what will it support? I do not have an answer to any of this but because it is obvious that a market is not itching to have more high end castings, so it will be a hard road to go down. The plural of anecdote does not equal fact.
I have engaged Mike do two simple castings for my little garden steamer and process and results were sweet. I am most pleased and I will do more when the time comes. (It is in my thread)
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Post by Oily Rag on Jun 24, 2018 22:07:11 GMT
With ever more demanding standards by some modellers, there seems to be more demand for very close to scale castings and finishes which require virtually no finishing. Lost wax casting is the ideal process for this whether the waxes are produced from rubber moulds of manually created or rapid prototyped masters, 3D printed patterns in PLA or casting wax or, indeed, from hard tooling. I'm wondering what sort of premium you'd pay for, say, a driving wheel which was lost wax cast using a CAD model done from the works drawings over a sand cast wheel with the necessary fettling etc.? Let's say a driving wheel sand cast in cast iron sold for £35.00, how much extra would you pay for a lost wax casting knowing the extra effort that goes into producing them? "I'm wondering what sort of premium you'd pay for" That is a difficult question because what the punters express and what actually occurs does not often match up, if ever. You will be creating a market, a lot of toil to establish the reputation in a very closed and small market place, is it worth while, is that time better spent having fun making your own locos ? ' A hobby or a chosen path of professional expression. One will suffer. |
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Post by Cro on Jun 25, 2018 7:32:44 GMT
At the end of the day it comes down to what you want to get out of your build, for many its build it to the drawings and slap an identity on it to say its just like the real thing (when it's really not in reality) but for others its more about replicating that as a miniature and that is the market this appeals too. I think people underestimate the amount of people who are in the latter group as I have found out doing my castings (through Mike) and if it were a case people weren't interested and didn't want to pay that premium then I wouldn't have a business today.
I also think from my point of view, from someone young in the hobby (or a baby to most in the hobby at 26!) time is critical to me with an ever faster approaching wedding, a puppy to look after, I've now got into cycling and more exercise and more sport than I already did which leaves very little time to be in the workshop and when I am in there I feel obliged to be on customer work rather than my own which leads me to my point that if I can find a way to speed things up whilst still doing the work myself then I'll take it. For example this Class 4 I have just purchased has all the bogie and pony truck wheels come with it, castings aren't great as the webbed boss at the back of the spokes is a bit naff whereas Mikes version is spot on perfect - if it wasn't for the fact they were already machined very well I'd have already sold them back to Steam Workshop and got Mikes version instead (I may still do!).
Like with any industry as time goes on the production methods change and for us from sand casting as the norm for bigger castings investment casting is now becoming more popular and more feasible but it has a higher price but it demands a higher price for its quality and tolerances and I for one think its worth it if I am able to produce a better model for it.
Adam
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weary
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 297
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Post by weary on Jun 25, 2018 8:03:51 GMT
Keeping an eye on (UK) ebay listing 253709122953, 4 x 'Live steam 5" gauge BR Standard wheel castings lost wax scale Model Engineering', may give some direct feedback. Phil. |
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Post by mr swarf on Jun 25, 2018 9:13:49 GMT
There will always be someone willing to pay a premium for such high quality castings but the market will be very small which makes its very difficult to be commercially viable. There are not enough people building loco's today. If you look at the Model Engineer magazine forum there is virtually zero interest in loco's which is very sad given the magazines history. With posts like "what materials can I get out of an old cooker" they are not going to pay a premium for anything!
Paul
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Post by 92220 on Jun 25, 2018 9:17:59 GMT
Hi Phil.
I've just had a look at that listing. Bit of a surprise seeing that!! I can even remember when the guy bought them off me.....at the Harrogate M.E.Exhibition back in around 2000 or 2001.
The mould for those wheels was the most difficult to machine to get a true scale casting. CNC would have made it easy. The problem was that the part line had to be down the centre of the spokes and they are set at an angle, so the part line was angled and obviously both halves had to be a perfect fit with each other. I think I got it right on the third attempt. This goes to show that the labour factor makes a premium for investment castings essential for any business. You can also see from the rear view of the castings, how the metal had to be poured into 4 places on the rim as well as into the centre boss, to make sure the metal flowed through the spokes without blowholes. There, the problem was the scale section of the spokes was much smaller than a normal 5" gauge CI casting.
Bob.
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Post by Cro on Jun 25, 2018 10:31:24 GMT
There will always be someone willing to pay a premium for such high quality castings but the market will be very small which makes its very difficult to be commercially viable. There are not enough people building loco's today. If you look at the Model Engineer magazine forum there is virtually zero interest in loco's which is very sad given the magazines history. With posts like "what materials can I get out of an old cooker" they are not going to pay a premium for anything! Paul Paul, I disagree completely, if anything people building locos today are even more interested in this sort of thing. And even more people interested in tidying up their loco to have things like this, I have had people come to me wanting to redo all the fittings and details on some of their locos. Just because people aren't posting about what they do doesn't mean they aren't doing it. I agree the ME forum is quite general and a very small minority interested in locos but again it doesn't mean people aren't out there doing it and to a very high standard too because parts like this and services like Mikes are available - ok its not the old way where you hacked out chain drill frames and the like but people are still building. Look at the boiler makers for example, they are all swamped with work these days. I think you would all be amazed at the amount of locos being built and the number of them that want high details or even reasonable detail to give their model the edge. I say it again, people like Mike and I wouldn't be in business if those people didn't exist. Adam |
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Post by mr swarf on Jun 25, 2018 11:05:10 GMT
Hi Adam, That's great to hear & I am happy to be corrected.
It was just an impression I got from reading ME & its forum.
Paul
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Post by Cro on Jun 25, 2018 11:11:19 GMT
I agree, its a real shame the forum doesn't have more interesting contributions on the loco front. I flick through regularly but hardly see much on their I want to stop and read.
Adam
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Post by Jo on Jun 25, 2018 15:57:00 GMT
It is odd that there is less interest on that Forum as it always seemed when it took it that the ME mag had more model Loco stuff than anything else.
Jo
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
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Post by jasonb on Jun 25, 2018 16:42:17 GMT
It is odd that there is less interest on that Forum as it always seemed when it took it that the ME mag had more model Loco stuff than anything else. Jo But spread over the two mags that the forum covers maybe only 25% is loco related. What are your thoughts on lost wax castings Jo? I know of at least one lot you were not happy with having paid a premium for them which comes down to what I said about the whole package having to be worth the premium not just the fact they were LW cast. |
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Post by Jo on Jun 25, 2018 16:57:35 GMT
I can't say about MEW I only took it for the first year before I stopped.
Which set of my castings are you thinking of?? Cotswold. They win nill points.
Jo
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Post by Oily Rag on Jun 25, 2018 20:36:17 GMT
The plural of personal anecdotes does not equal fact.
Show me the data
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Post by simplyloco on Jun 25, 2018 20:43:09 GMT
I agree, its a real shame the forum doesn't have more interesting contributions on the loco front. I flick through regularly but hardly see much on their I want to stop and read. Adam Adam, I'm confused -easy these days- but do you mean you want a greater quantity of interesting loco contributions, or just more interesting than the loco contributions that we have now? John |
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Post by Cro on Jun 25, 2018 20:50:06 GMT
I agree, its a real shame the forum doesn't have more interesting contributions on the loco front. I flick through regularly but hardly see much on their I want to stop and read. Adam Adam, I'm confused -easy these days- but do you mean you want a greater quantity of interesting loco contributions, or just more interesting than the loco contributions that we have now? John John, This is about the ME forum not this forum - but a mix of both on that front. Adam |
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Post by Jo on Jun 26, 2018 0:07:04 GMT
The plural of personal anecdotes does not equal fact. Show me the data
In relation to the lost wax casings Jason and I are talking about: Anthony Mount designed and built some stationary engine models which are retailed by Cotswolds. To make the mould for the waxes Cotwolds used the parts from Anthony's completed models, which are of course the finished machined size. The result is that the waxes are also the finished size and have no shrinkage or machining allowance. So all the castings are undersized before you start 
Polly Models also sell Anthony's stationary engine designs but they use traditional sand casting and the castings they retail have machining allowance on them.
Jo
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Post by Oily Rag on Jun 26, 2018 2:57:27 GMT
The plural of personal anecdotes does not equal fact. Show me the data
In relation to the lost wax casings Jason and I are talking about: Anthony Mount designed and built some stationary engine models which are retailed by Cotswolds. To make the mould for the waxes Cotwolds used the parts from Anthony's completed models, which are of course the finished machined size. The result is that the waxes are also the finished size and have no shrinkage or machining allowance. So all the castings are undersized before you start
Polly Models also sell Anthony's stationary engine designs but they use traditional sand casting and the castings they retail have machining allowance on them.
Jo
What I mean is that many will answer a question of "Do you want these if I produce them ?" Many put their hand up and many urge a person to make the part, but then when the part with perhaps a realistic price is presented, they are no where to be seen having all disappeared into the long grass. So does a genuine place exist in the market as Mike is asking, or is it just a few anecdotes ? Some times there is no answer till one puts it out there and awaits the take up of the part. Boosted by marketing, which has a cost. This for any thing, not just ME stuff. I have many parts designs in my head and in sketches for bicycle frame making, that a few builders would agree they desire and will buy, but it is a few, not enough to make it even foolishly viable. |
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abby
Statesman
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Post by abby on Jun 26, 2018 12:44:43 GMT
Just to clarify the comments on this thread , how many of you produce castings ? I see so many comments about the quality of so and so's castings but who actually makes them.
It seems to me that if you can sit at a computer using one or another CAD application , send of your files to be printed in wax or whatever then send the resultant patterns to be cast by a commercial foundry you are suddenly hailed as the saviour of the hobby.
There isn't a foundry on the planet that could exist solely on model locomotive casting sales and the options for model engineers will get less as time passes.
I for one will no longer produce loco parts except for my own use , I have gone back to art casting which still requires human hand and eye input and gives a measure of satisfaction.
Just to open eyes to other options , I mentioned the castings I made for a German client who was once a member of this forum , he was involved in a build of 50 5" gauge engines the wheels of which were all spark eroded and were as fine as any I have ever seen.
They were actually cheaper than castings and obviously needed very little finishing!
Dan.
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Post by simplyloco on Jun 26, 2018 15:12:24 GMT
Just to clarify the comments on this thread , how many of you produce castings ? SNIP Dan. I've made iron sand castings, and great fun it was too. I had to learn how to do it when in the military, as we didn't have a Royal Ordnance factory round the corner! They looked like a dog's breakfast but they could get a tank out of a hole - metaphorically speaking... In fact, our final A1 trade test incorporated a self cast stirrup casting about 10 x 4 x 2", and if it fell apart when machining it you failed the trade test!  |
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Post by silverfox on Jun 26, 2018 15:57:49 GMT
What is to stop the more 'established' suppliers giving a guide price for proposed new bits?
It is the not knowing that puts a lot of people off
I would rather have a guesstimate than nothing
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