jma1009
Elder Statesman
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 5, 2018 1:11:33 GMT
It is with some trepidation I start this thread. It will no doubt be very divisive and polarised, rather like Brexit!
Let me start this off on a different tack altogether. The first house I grew up in until we moved when I was 5 had a coal fire in the lounge, then we moved to a house where the dining room had a coal fire till we moved again to the Isle of Wight when I was 16, going back to a coal fire in the lounge.
From age 5 to 16, though particularly from 11 to 16, the dining room coal fire was very important as it was where we did our homework, and where I taught myself to play the piano. My Dad filled up the coal bucket once per evening, and every lump of coal was strategically placed to gain maximum heat output and nothing was wasted and the minimal (parsimonious) supply properly burnt.
I have never lived in a house subsequently of my own that did not have a coal fire. Raking out the fire, clearing the ashpan, ensuring a suitable supply of coal, and dealing with all the dirt and dust and muck is a chore. I have had 40 years of this since the age of 11 when my Dad delegated this chore to me. And as when aged 11 having only 1 coal bucket to last the evening, I still carefully place each lump of coal and time this as and when to give maximum heat output.
If I visit a 'pub' for a meal for a family occasion (and it would have to be an old fashioned pub with an open fire!) I am the culprit who re-arranges the fire and adds more fuel to maximise the heat output.
Cheers,
Julian
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Post by Jim on Dec 5, 2018 4:45:26 GMT
We had a coal fired kitchen range in the house I grew up in and heaven help you if you inadvertently put coal on the fire while mother was baking a cake. At school we had coke fueled 'Broadway' heaters in the classrooms and a much sought after task was to be the coke monitor that kept the coke scuttles full. You also had the job of lighting the fire each morning. You quickly learned how to set a fire, no fire meant unhappy classmates and even more unhappy teacher.
Jim
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Post by ettingtonliam on Dec 5, 2018 6:36:07 GMT
Oh yes, coke stoves in the classroom! Hardly able to see from one side of the class to the other on Monday mornings when it had just been lit for week, and smoked. Free school milk came in little bottles in crates, which froze in the winter and had to be stood in front on the stove to thaw out. Ah, the memorable smell of coke smoke, rancid milk and 30 mixed infants, a few of whom were not reliably continent!
In rural Ireland, each child had to bring a sod of turf (peat) each morning for the classroom fire, which was next to the teacher, and not near most of the children.
Anyway, I'm sure Julian didn't expect this thread to take the direction it has, so back to locomotive driving.
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Post by steamcoal on Dec 5, 2018 6:37:23 GMT
When does the driving bit start Julian....can't wait.
The lighting up bit always intrigues me, the will it go...won't it go period.
Use good hardwood charcoal and a bit of paraffin, you can't miss.
Hayden
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Dec 5, 2018 7:03:30 GMT
Since we are getting nicely off topic, or are we, when newly married in Canada in Esquimault, I rented a house with a fire place. Need some wood so I called the local sawmill as they delivered. They supplied the outer parts of the tree that was not used for lumber. How much would I like 1, 2 or 3 chords. Well 2 chords seemed about right until the tipper truck dumped his load in my driveway, it took weeks to stack and I learnt what a chord was.
And BTW driving is simple, pull the lever. It is the firing that catches everyone out! D
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 5, 2018 9:20:55 GMT
I started using coal soon after I joined the NCB, as they gave you several tonnes a year free.
I can't claim I got particularly efficient, just over time you learn to light them and keep them going overnight on "tickover". I even managed to prepare Christmas dinners for the family single handed on a Rayburn stove, until I remarried and we had gas installed (I was no longer in the coal industry by then).
As an aside I went to the Rhondda Heritage Park last Saturday with my daughter and her 2 boys to see Santa in the coal mine grotto. I was quietly in tears walking around - the workmanship, the muscle and sweat, the dangers, the camaraderie, the ordered society.
Pete.
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Post by David on Dec 5, 2018 10:04:47 GMT
And BTW driving is simple, pull the lever. It is the firing that catches everyone out! Well, see, that's how we arrived at this new thread. It seems you either drive on the regular or you have a johnson bar reverser. I twist the handle, as it's a simple regulator that's basically a big needle valve under the dome. And I shuffle along either frontwards or backwards depending on what way I want to travel, of if the weight of people on the train have pulled it back more than half a wheel revolution while they're getting on. Not so simple! As for your real point, I agree. Last running day I used the most shallow fire I can recall and still ended up with big sticky lumps of clinker. Not sure where to go from here.
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Lisa
Statesman
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Post by Lisa on Dec 5, 2018 11:19:56 GMT
Perhaps I'm the odd one out, having been taught to fire a loco several years before being allowed near the house fire. We didn't have fires in school either; too hot everywhere I grew up.
Speaking of steam loco's though (someone was I'm sure?), we always filled the boiler from a suitably sized bottle (or bottles) of water (pre-treated for steel boilers); the size of bottle was chosen to fill to about ¾ glass. By starting this way with the same amount of water every time, we could immediately tell if there was a blockage somewhere as the gauge glass would read more than it should. If it read less, you'd probably forgotten to close the blow down valve. For fire lighting we'd start with a strip of paraffin soaked rag with a bit left hanging out the firehole door, then paraffin soaked hardwood cut to the length of the firebox stacked on top of the rag. Test the electric blower before lighting, and grab the spare battery if needed. Then light the rag, flick the dangling bit into the firebox with the rake, turn the electric blower on, and shut the firehole door. Then you'd refill the paraffin jar* with wood ready for the next light up, and by the time that was done the fire was ready for the first shovel of coal.
*We used to find a suitably sized jar for the wood simply by wandering around the supermarket with a bit of the cut kindling of the correct length, iirc it was kraft peanut butter for the switcher, and nescafe coffee for the sweet pea. Also the switcher took 6 litres (3 x 2 litre cordial bottles) and the sweet pea was 4 litres (an actual 4 litre water bottle).
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Post by delaplume on Dec 5, 2018 11:31:30 GMT
Hello everyone,
Well done Julian,
At age three we moved from private rental ( I lived next door to the 5 year old Jacqueline Bisset, now a Film actress in the USA )... to a brand new Council House on the outskirts of Reading, Berks.....and just like others on here learnt the hard way how to prep, build, ignite and manage a coal fire......At the same time Dad had an allotment at the base of the Ex-GWR Berks and Hants line, not far from the "up" outer Home (or stop ) signal....Here he would build a large bonfire which to a young boy's imagination became the firebox of those trains passing some 10 to 15 feet up above...
That combined with Train Spotting after school ( or instead of it in some cases----The Red Dragon coming through on the dual user middle line ). saw me hooked on it for a lifetime.....
.His friends from work ( some were Ex-Footplate crew from the recently closed BR-W Didcot MPD ) would ensure that I understood the huge debt we owed the Coal Miners for that coal to be in the tender....
My days in The RN involved oil firing in the main, but the stand-by chain ferry at Torpoint to Plymouth although oil fired was STEAM POWERED and you could stand at the top of an Engine Room gangway and sample that heady aroma of heat, oil and Steam rising up from below...
When at the SVR the theme of our debt to the Coal Miners was continued by the likes of Alun Rees and Ray Tranter....and thus it became our responsibility to ensure our Driving / Firing technique gave the best possible results all round......
Cheers
Alan R
PS}--- Just for the record, Julian can we define what constitutes a "Miniature" steam locomotive as per the title ??
Might I suggest up to and including 7.25 " gauge........
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Post by ilvaporista on Dec 5, 2018 15:57:02 GMT
A quick tip which has saved me from embarrassment a couple of times is when you forget the paraffin soaked sticks or firelighters just pour some steam oil on a bit of your cleaning rag and use that instead.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
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Post by Midland on Dec 5, 2018 16:24:17 GMT
A quick tip which has saved me from embarrassment a couple of times is when you forget the paraffin soaked sticks or firelighters just pour some steam oil on a bit of your cleaning rag and use that instead. I like that one,. Using oil as well for effect. Apparently the photographers would arrange for the fireman to chuck a litre plastic bottle of old oil into the fire at a set point and then loco would give off lots of lack smoke for the picture! Might try that in miniature with a small pill bottle. D
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Post by delaplume on Dec 5, 2018 18:26:07 GMT
A quick tip which has saved me from embarrassment a couple of times is when you forget the paraffin soaked sticks or firelighters just pour some steam oil on a bit of your cleaning rag and use that instead. I like that one,. Using oil as well for effect. Apparently the photographers would arrange for the fireman to chuck a litre plastic bottle of old oil into the fire at a set point and then loco would give off lots of lack smoke for the picture! Might try that in miniature with a small pill bottle.
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Post by David on Dec 5, 2018 20:16:59 GMT
When I was firing a steam launch on Sydney Harbour we had to be careful around Darling Harbour if picking up or dropping off passengers - there were complaints if the fire was smoky while in there. It required planning ahead so you didn't need to add coal for the time you were inside. Same going down the Parramatta river, trying not to add coal too near any houses.
The launch has a yarrow boiler and it is incredibly responsive. You'd use the damper to control the steam pressure more than anything and if the engineer kept you appraised of what was coming up you could run things to suit. For example the trips into Darling Harbour you'd bank the fire up early to let the extra coal get nice and hot so that once you were out you could open the damper and spread the coal around before you started losing pressure. About 15-20 mins before coming home you'd stop with coal altogether and if you really needed something you'd use wood. If you got it right the launch would pull up to the pier with the fire almost gone but still 200psi on the gauge.
This full size boiler was much easier to manage than a 5" loco boiler!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2018 20:23:58 GMT
I wonder how many know that when the first steam engines were allowed to run on rails the design rules given were that each locomotive must be able to fully consume it's own smoke... any smoke from the funnel was not allowed...no idea if any punishments were given out or not.
Pete.
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Post by Roger on Dec 5, 2018 21:10:36 GMT
I don't have much experience, but what I have discovered is that many locomotives will never 'notch up', and even if they will, many will just go lumpy and lose power without any appreciable benefit. Some locomotives are so inefficient that it's a struggle to keep going without the blower on all the time, either to cope with a poorly designed boiler, lack of superheating or the wasteful use of steam.
So my submission is that you have to learn to drive what you're sitting behind, because going into the niceties of 'driving on the reverser' isn't going to help on a great many models. Learning to drive is as much about assessing the capabilities of your locomotive as anything else. It's easy to be given a locomotive that you struggle with and blame yourself when much of your troubles are to do with the locomotive itself. If the fire bars are so far apart that you lose half the fire on the track, you're on a hiding to nothing before you start.
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Midland
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,870
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Post by Midland on Dec 5, 2018 21:21:30 GMT
Dear Julian We have had enough smoke and fire and more. How do you drive a steam loco? I have never found the steering wheel on any of mine so we wait for your wise council on this matter. Perhaps you have some important points to share or perhaps your comments may turnout to be revealing for us mortals, left or right, we are bi- well something like that as in a bidirectional point or switch? What around a Y point, is this transgender railroading? There will be more questions of course, perhaps even in Parliament given the nuances of your argument but I will defend you as a genuine miniature engineer, albeit tall and worthy! NB. you are not a model, not in this sex wild world!! And revealingly, a glass of red (now two) let's me pull your leg a little seems appropriate. I look forward to opening one with you in Wales one day!! But I love your coal, bless you! Midland aka as you know David
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Post by delaplume on Dec 5, 2018 21:55:23 GMT
I wonder how many know that when the first steam engines were allowed to run on rails the design rules given were that each locomotive must be able to fully consume it's own smoke... any smoke from the funnel was not allowed...no idea if any punishments were given out or not. Pete. I'm fairly sure that was one of the regs. covering the Rainhill Trials and resulted in the use of coke rather than coal......certainly it appears to be an eerily accurate glimpse into the future of that time..
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Post by delaplume on Dec 5, 2018 21:57:59 GMT
I like that one,. Using oil as well for effect. Apparently the photographers would arrange for the fireman to chuck a litre plastic bottle of old oil into the fire at a set point and then loco would give off lots of lack smoke for the picture! Might try that in miniature with a small pill bottle. Yes, I can personally vouch for that...........Alas we were told in no uncertain terms by the SVR Board to cease such activities IMMEDIATELY following a series of complaints by local housewives along the length of the line..... Apparently white bed sheets hanging on a washing line had turned into a "Spotty-Dog" look....
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,896
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 5, 2018 23:21:46 GMT
I thought it interesting to provide my own experiences of coal fires in the domestic environment. If you don't keep a domestic fire hot, and then add more coal - and the tendancy is often to add a lot of coal all in one go, then it just sulks for ages and ages producing a lot of smoke but no heat.
The heat from a domestic coal fire is principally via radiation.
I was taught to fire 'little and often', and not just shovel it in blindly, but look at the fire, and place the coal carefully. In order to do this you also need to see the fire bed, otherwise you won't know where to place it. You often won't be able to see all the fire bed (eg the back corners of a wide firebox, or the front of a long sloping firebox) but obviously you need to fire in the bits you can't see.
Obviously, in order to fire 'little and often' you have to be able to fire 'on the run'.
Cheers,
Julian
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Dec 6, 2018 0:14:05 GMT
I thought it interesting to provide my own experiences of coal fires in the domestic environment. If you don't keep a domestic fire hot, and then add more coal - and the tendancy is often to add a lot of coal all in one go, then it just sulks for ages and ages producing a lot of smoke but no heat. The heat from a domestic coal fire is principally via radiation. I was taught to fire 'little and often', and not just shovel it in blindly, but look at the fire, and place the coal carefully. In order to do this you also need to see the fire bed, otherwise you won't know where to place it. You often won't be able to see all the fire bed (eg the back corners of a wide firebox, or the front of a long sloping firebox) but obviously you need to fire in the bits you can't see. Obviously, in order to fire 'little and often' you have to be able to fire 'on the run'. Cheers, Julian That's very true, and the domestic coal fire analogy is useful (even if our younger brethren might have never seen such a thing!). It isn't always possible though, and when running on ground level tracks with models of standard-gauge prototypes, particularly tank engines, firing is more or less 'by feel'. You can see the fire immediately below the firehole and that is about it, even if you are a contortionist. Can our assembled 'Brains Trust' offer any suggestions? -Gary
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