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Post by David on Dec 6, 2018 3:41:33 GMT
If the fire bars are so far apart that you lose half the fire on the track, you're on a hiding to nothing before you start. One of our more experienced members went around all afternoon with only half a grate once! The front half (or back, I can't remember) fell into the ashpan while still in the steaming bay. As for firing at ground level, I agree you can see very little. To try and avoid the clinker sticking to the grate and try and have an even bed I always have a good rake around after I've added some coal. It occurs to me this might not be the right time to do it as then I might end up with 'cool' coal on the bars rather than on the already alight bed.
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Post by Roger on Dec 6, 2018 8:11:42 GMT
I thought it interesting to provide my own experiences of coal fires in the domestic environment. If you don't keep a domestic fire hot, and then add more coal - and the tendancy is often to add a lot of coal all in one go, then it just sulks for ages and ages producing a lot of smoke but no heat. The heat from a domestic coal fire is principally via radiation. I was taught to fire 'little and often', and not just shovel it in blindly, but look at the fire, and place the coal carefully. In order to do this you also need to see the fire bed, otherwise you won't know where to place it. You often won't be able to see all the fire bed (eg the back corners of a wide firebox, or the front of a long sloping firebox) but obviously you need to fire in the bits you can't see. Obviously, in order to fire 'little and often' you have to be able to fire 'on the run'. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, I find that it's next to impossible to see any more than the front part of the fire just inside the doors because I'm tall. If you're driving a tank locomotive you're up close and that makes it even more difficult. If you're short and driving a tender locomotive, maybe you can see, but I'm mostly driving blind. I use the shovel to feel how deep the fire is and just try to spread it evenly as I fire. It's not ideal, but I don't know what else I can do really. To see the back on 1501, I'd have to get on my hands and knees. Firing 'on the run' is fun, but rarely necessary. The biggest issue is doing it while still being aware of what's going on!
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 6, 2018 8:45:56 GMT
When I was running the Bridget, now under the careful ownership of Paul aka Juliet 2, I nicked one of my wife's mirrors so I could see into the fire every now and then. I kept it in the loco bunker.
Firing on the run is part of the fun. Try and find a piece of straight track with nothing around to distract you. In my early days on raised track I fell off a few times either looking at the injector overflow or firing and suddenly going round a curve.
On the run I am not fussy where the coal goes but in the station I make sure I spread it out.
You can see the reflection of the underside of the fire on the ashpan on some locos. I remove the cab floor on the Holmside for running to facilitate this. This shows whether the fire is dull or bright.
Pete.
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Post by suctionhose on Dec 6, 2018 8:59:17 GMT
Firstly, greetings Julian! I hope your melancholy is passing? See, I don't contribute often but I do at least read from time to time. Actually, after going round and round for 40 years I am tiring of locomotives - they are mostly of the same basic Stephensonian design - and have returned to traction engine building which offers a different experience in many ways.
I'm not sure what lead you overcome your "trepidation" and start this off but I'm going challenge you now with my thoughts!
Operating a steam loco is not something you can learn by the numbers. I suggest that most visitors to this site know the basic intent of locomotive operation but to go beyond needs practical experience. I'm confident LBSC would concur!
Why is that? Well, the attraction of the steam era may well be defined by the undefinable "something" that draws people in. I know what it is!!! It's the human component that makes the difference between good results and poor. Exactly the same with playing an instrument, doing a gymnastics routine, flying a light aircraft, working with horses... These are things where human intervention is directly reflected in the result.
In a quest to eliminate variation and dependency on human skills, we have developed automation, computerised systems, robots, PLC's and all kinds of technology expressly to unify results by eliminating humans.
Alibaba (China) transacted 2 billion US dollars in 2 minutes a couple of weeks ago. WOW. All robots and computers. Most people never thought about it. If they announce the same next year people will be disappointed. What really brings people to their feet, tears to their eyes, emotions to the fore is witnessing even the smallest of human achievements: your child coming second in a swimming race, a song, a clear round of show jumping, a ball going in the hoop. This is what makes humans feel great!
Steam engines, along with many technologies of that era, need a human to make it sing. Sure, you can play piano by numbers but people who play are just amazing to witness.
How many times have you seen or read of an engineman that "get's along on a sniff of steam" where another makes really hard work of it. These are not skills you can teach. These are intuitive senses that only the individual can develop for his or herself by doing, reviewing a finding what works best. Some never get it, many do OK but some will turn it into an artform.
In this digital age, the value of the human contribution is more devalued every day. No news there. I'm interested though to see Corporate Training involving horsemanship, educational leaders (I have a 10 yr old) reverberating the importance of "playing outdoors", of the mental and physical nourishment from being creative in any form.
In the steam age, these elements of life where everywhere. You used your brain, your powers of perception, your inquiring mind at every task. The curiosity of how a fire burned or characteristics of this coal or that. I could go on. My beliefs in this regard have been reaffirmed repeatedly by everyday events occurring around me even in recent months. Humans will always savour providing that missing piece that makes all the difference to the outcome.
So, without further ranting, I propose that the art of running a locomotive well, cannot be articulated in words written or spoken. Sure, the basics can be written and read ad infinitum as they have been for 100 years. In end it is in hands of the individual to have a go, to hear, see and smell, to wonder why and try their own way. Only through this process can anyone become a master of the footplate in whatever size; large or small.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 6, 2018 10:54:43 GMT
in response to Gary on page 1}--- shrink ?? Go modern --- apply radio control ??...LoL ! Some time ago Joyce and I were at the big Model Engineering show based at the exhibition halls at Sinsheim, Germany --- sinsheim.technik-museum.de/en/ ----------- One sight stays with me and it's that of a young lad ( 12--13 ?? ) laying prone on his driving truck and coal firing a 5"gauge Rocket on the ground level track........... It took about 25 to 30 mins for one complete circuit of the track and to his credit he did 3 laps whilst I was buying those "important items" for the workshop..... I'm with you Gary--- I can't even spell cont-torty whotsit let alone do it !!..........I have a couple of locos from "The Dark Side" with which I can sit up straight whilst twiddling the control lever.... Any steamer ( Simplex and now the GWR Mogul ) and it's DEFINITELY a raised track for these 69 year old bones I'm afraid..... I do enjoy passenger hauling and in particular the look on the small children's eyes when those "Black Stones" start to catch fire !! "In the land of the Centrally Heated the coal fire owner is King" to totally mis-quote...
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 6, 2018 11:07:24 GMT
Hi Ross,
I think you have summed up my engineering career there. I was never on the tools, always the professional side for me.
Nevertheless, in my view, unless you understand how water/steel/concrete/timber/soil/rock feel and behave under load you can't begin to analyse them and determine whether things are likely to stand up or fall.
Computerisation was "progressing" during my career but I think it was actually a detriment in many ways. Ideal for repetitive tasks, but poor at giving you the human/material understanding.
Pete.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,907
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Post by JonL on Dec 6, 2018 11:58:24 GMT
I don't think its unreasonable to at least explain the basics for those that are interested or wish to self improve rather than just writing off anything other than practical experience as pointless. I'm interested to read what this thread has to offer. There is a great article on the front page of Model Engineer magazines website which serves a similar purpose and its been read to death by me. Until I get to fire something myself its a good substitute. I'm sure some of it is intuitive but that shouldn't discourage a good discussion about techniques, especially for the beginner. A few years ago I didn't know what an injector was, let alone how it worked. Sites like this and the content they contain are useful. I will fill in the other gaps when I get the opportunity.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 6, 2018 12:00:30 GMT
Firstly, greetings Julian! I hope your melancholy is passing? See, I don't contribute often but I do at least read from time to time. Actually, after going round and round for 40 years I am tiring of locomotives - they are mostly of the same basic Stephensonian design - and have returned to traction engine building which offers a different experience in many ways. I'm not sure what lead you overcome your "trepidation" and start this off but I'm going challenge you now with my thoughts! Operating a steam loco is not something you can learn by the numbers. I suggest that most visitors to this site know the basic intent of locomotive operation but to go beyond needs practical experience. I'm confident LBSC would concur! Why is that? Well, the attraction of the steam era may well be defined by the undefinable "something" that draws people in. I know what it is!!! It's the human component that makes the difference between good results and poor. Exactly the same with playing an instrument, doing a gymnastics routine, flying a light aircraft, working with horses... These are things where human intervention is directly reflected in the result. In a quest to eliminate variation and dependency on human skills, we have developed automation, computerised systems, robots, PLC's and all kinds of technology expressly to unify results by eliminating humans. Alibaba (China) transacted 2 billion US dollars in 2 minutes a couple of weeks ago. WOW. All robots and computers. Most people never thought about it. If they announce the same next year people will be disappointed. What really brings people to their feet, tears to their eyes, emotions to the fore is witnessing even the smallest of human achievements: your child coming second in a swimming race, a song, a clear round of show jumping, a ball going in the hoop. This is what makes humans feel great! Steam engines, along with many technologies of that era, need a human to make it sing. Sure, you can play piano by numbers but people who play are just amazing to witness. How many times have you seen or read of an engineman that "get's along on a sniff of steam" where another makes really hard work of it. These are not skills you can teach. These are intuitive senses that only the individual can develop for his or herself by doing, reviewing a finding what works best. Some never get it, many do OK but some will turn it into an artform. In this digital age, the value of the human contribution is more devalued every day. No news there. I'm interested though to see Corporate Training involving horsemanship, educational leaders (I have a 10 yr old) reverberating the importance of "playing outdoors", of the mental and physical nourishment from being creative in any form. In the steam age, these elements of life where everywhere. You used your brain, your powers of perception, your inquiring mind at every task. The curiosity of how a fire burned or characteristics of this coal or that. I could go on. My beliefs in this regard have been reaffirmed repeatedly by everyday events occurring around me even in recent months. Humans will always savour providing that missing piece that makes all the difference to the outcome. So, without further ranting, I propose that the art of running a locomotive well, cannot be articulated in words written or spoken. Sure, the basics can be written and read ad infinitum as they have been for 100 years. In end it is in hands of the individual to have a go, to hear, see and smell, to wonder why and try their own way. Only through this process can anyone become a master of the footplate in whatever size; large or small. Hello Suctionhose, Well done---I couldn't agree with those sentiments any the more...........As a lifelong Mechanical Engineer, pragmatist and "Hands-on" person I'm not very well blessed in the mystic art of expressing one's feelings and emotions ( Ask Joyce --- I didn't actually get around to proposing, more it was that she told me we were engaged !!)...... You have encapsulated the very reason why I first became involved with Steam Railway restoration......It's one thing to see a collection of "Dead" locos out in the cold, wet yards of Bridgnorth MPD on a Winter's Sunday afternoon but over a period of time you become "Involved" with the re-building and yes, I suppose the rescue of a particular hulk .... Come the moment when the first fire is lit in it after maybe 10 years of collective, hard work, dedication and personal sacrifice and it IS a great FEELING ..... a very Human attribute indeed...But wait, there's more}---- A few years later--you happen to be passing and that particular loco goes by at the head of a normal, everyday service train......And there are those con-rod bushes that you made from new still giving good service, or there are those cladding sheets that your late friend restored and hand painted, including the company crests !!--- and so I transferred all of that into my 5" gauge activities where the main aim is to restore and give new breath into old or worn-out model locos......I even have my workshops set out in a manner similar to the full size including some chassis stands made from surplus Army tank bits'n bobs, an overhead crane in the boiler shop, wheel pressing and turning etc........I even have a Station cat !! But the feeling of anticipation and accomplishment is just the same when that model is out in the back garden with the box of matches at "The Ready" and the first fire is about to be lit !! Finally-------- "Corporate Bonding week-ends" ?? .... "Team Training" sessions?.... "Group Hugging" ?........"Ramp-up" ?......."Bring to the Table" ......"Feel the Warmth" etc, etc..... You don't need all that Rhubarb !!-------- Humans are gregarious by nature, albeit in a group of one sometimes, ------ so join the appropriate Club or Society because it is greater than the sum of its' parts and we are all the better for it ... Here endeth the lesson...
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Post by delaplume on Dec 6, 2018 12:08:18 GMT
I don't think its unreasonable to at least explain the basics for those that are interested or wish to self improve rather than just writing off anything other than practical experience as pointless. I'm interested to read what this thread has to offer. There is a great article on the front page of Model Engineer magazines website which serves a similar purpose and its been read to death by me. Until I get to fire something myself its a good substitute. I'm sure some of it is intuitive but that shouldn't discourage a good discussion about techniques, especially for the beginner. A few years ago I didn't know what an injector was, let alone how it worked. Sites like this and the content they contain are useful. I will fill in the other gaps when I get the opportunity. Hello nobby, just to muddy the waters a wee bit for you}-------- Diesels and modern day petrol cars / bikes have injectors too.....sorry !!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 12:08:27 GMT
I do think it's worth reading the engineman's handbook on how to fire a full-size locomotive, it's very informative and to me, the principles given are very much in tune with how many describe firing a miniature live steam locomotive.
Pete
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Post by delaplume on Dec 6, 2018 12:47:57 GMT
I do think it's worth reading the engineman's handbook on how to fire a full-size locomotive, it's very informative and to me, the principles given are very much in tune with how many describe firing a miniature live steam locomotive. Pete You're quite right there Pete, Regardless of size the fundamental rules still apply}---- It's the burning volatile gasses given off by the coal that actually gives the heat------Firing a little but often is preferred ----- smaller lumps per overall volume of coal present a greater surface area and will burn quicker------- Different types of coal burn in different ways ------ some firebox designs respond differently to others in regards to your firing style eg}-- Wooten full width and narrow, between the frame types.....etc. Here's a little "aid memoir" from my MIC days }------ Traditionally a railway loco. Fireman will always complain of being "Hard-up", ie litle or no spending money.. So, the question is}--"What are the main constituant parts of Coal ??" Answer = NOCASH -------------- Nitrogen ( 1.5% ).......Oxygen ( 8% )..........Carbon ( 75% ) ......Ash ( 10% )......Sulphur ( 0.5% ) From the above you can see that as a Fireman for every shovelful you get from the Tender or Bunker, you might as well throw 17% of that away as it's of no use to you whatsoever........All you are wanting is Carbon at 75% plus Oxygen at 8% ...... In fact you could theoretically go a stage further and look for a coal seam that has 83% Carbon and no Oxygen---- the idea being that a slight increase in firebar spacing will compensate... I just found myself humming the tune to the TV series}--"As time goes by"...........The words -- with a slight adjustment --seem to fit as well..eg}....... "The World will always welcome Steamers, as time goes by " Time for the Red Pill now.....
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 208
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Post by baldric on Dec 6, 2018 12:53:08 GMT
[quote author=" Roger " source="/post/166351/thread" timestamp="1544083902 I find that it's next to impossible to see any more than the front part of the fire just inside the doors because I'm tall. If you're driving a tank locomotive you're up close and that makes it even more difficult. If you're short and driving a tender locomotive, maybe you can see, but I'm mostly driving blind. I use the shovel to feel how deep the fire is and just try to spread it evenly as I fire. It's not ideal, but I don't know what else I can do really. To see the back on 1501, I'd have to get on my hands and knees. Firing 'on the run' is fun, but rarely necessary. The biggest issue is doing it while still being aware of what's going on! [/quote] Roger, Just to avoid confusion, the front of the firebox normally refers to the part furthest from the Firehole door as that is the front of the engine, with the back being nearest, from you description I think you are referring to them the other way round. Obviously there are some vehicles where this is not so, Double Fairlies and Didcot's Steam Rail motor being some examples. Baldric
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Post by Deleted on Dec 6, 2018 12:57:27 GMT
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Post by terrier060 on Dec 6, 2018 14:47:54 GMT
Hi Julian - all this talk about carefully handling the fire is coking me off. Just get a load from the old Deep Duffryn Colliery in Mountain Ash - all you need to do is poke a couple of knobs of this into the firebox and forget about it. Keeps you going for hours. Sadly the Colliery is now flooded I suspect, and we shall never see the likes of it again. On a more serious note - if the government have their way we shall all have to burn this foreign rubbish and that will really test our firing skills!
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Post by Jock McFarlane on Dec 6, 2018 15:27:49 GMT
Hi Julian - all this talk about carefully handling the fire is coking me off. Just get a load from the old Deep Duffryn Colliery in Mountain Ash - all you need to do is poke a couple of knobs of this into the firebox and forget about it. Keeps you going for hours. Sadly the Colliery is now flooded I suspect, and we shall never see the likes of it again. On a more serious note - if the government have their way we shall all have to burn this foreign rubbish and that will really test our firing skills! Your philosophy reminds of the story of the pre-grouping Scottish driver returning home from England with his Atlantic having spent a week on efficiency trials with corresponding English locos.
His first instruction to the fireman on the way home was "get these safety valves roaring - there's no pounds to the mile here".
Unless you are on IMLEC trials this does seem to be a good way to operate as you are less likely to run short of steam.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Dec 6, 2018 15:43:27 GMT
The best coal I had for the house was when we were building Newcastle Western Bypass, nearly 30 years ago. Our deep cuttings intercepted shallow coal seams which had been worked in the 19th century, but then abandoned. We were supposed to hand the coal over to NCB at their local depot, but they only worked 5 days/week and we worked 5 1/2 days----. A few bags full of this coal in the back of Land Rover on a Saturday morning soon had the bunker full. Put some of that on the sitting room fire and you had to move your chair back, it was so hot!
For the loco, or actually the traction engine because that was what I had at the time, the local branch line had been closed, but the tracks not taken up yet. It had been used for coal trains and over the years plenty had shaken off the wagons and locos, so taking the dog for a walk also included picking up some of the choicer lumps into a carrier bag, and putting on one side in the shed. No clinker with that stuff!
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Post by delaplume on Dec 6, 2018 16:54:58 GMT
Hi Julian - all this talk about carefully handling the fire is coking me off. Just get a load from the old Deep Duffryn Colliery in Mountain Ash - all you need to do is poke a couple of knobs of this into the firebox and forget about it. Keeps you going for hours. Sadly the Colliery is now flooded I suspect, and we shall never see the likes of it again. On a more serious note - if the government have their way we shall all have to burn this foreign rubbish and that will really test our firing skills! Oh how that bought tears to my eyes !!---------The late, lamented Mountain Ash colliery....a "Deep Mine" pit with some of the best Welsh Steam coal going.... For the record}--- The deeper the mine the more "older" the coal is likely to be and hence more compacted with a larger % of Carbon in it.....Also it'l have better volatiles which release easier... Whilst at the SVR the Management Board tried coal from various cheaper sources eg}---- South America and Poland.....In both cases I seem to remember this was coal from an open seam colliery in which the coal is literally scraped from the sides of an open air seam.......These seams produce very "young" coal with low carbon content and a high yield of Ash PLUS our dear friend Iron Pyrites or CLINKER to you and me........also lots of MUD in the delivery which we had just paid ££££ for !!! On the footplate}--- for the unwary some Welsh Steam Coal when burning in the firebox had a habit of "undercutting" as it were and leaving a crust which--- after a while --- would suddenly collapse into a very thin bed indeed !!............ and you were in deep POO !!.... When it happened to me I remember my Driver sat back on his wooden seat and --------just smiled !!.."Your fault---you fix it" .... You don't forget those lessons, as learnt the hard way...
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 6, 2018 20:34:39 GMT
Hi Julian - all this talk about carefully handling the fire is coking me off. Just get a load from the old Deep Duffryn Colliery in Mountain Ash - all you need to do is poke a couple of knobs of this into the firebox and forget about it. Keeps you going for hours. Sadly the Colliery is now flooded I suspect, and we shall never see the likes of it again. On a more serious note - if the government have their way we shall all have to burn this foreign rubbish and that will really test our firing skills! Oh how that bought tears to my eyes !!---------The late, lamented Mountain Ash colliery....a "Deep Mine" pit with some of the best Welsh Steam coal going.... For the record}--- The deeper the mine the more "older" the coal is likely to be and hence more compacted with a larger % of Carbon in it.....Also it'l have better volatiles which release easier... Whilst at the SVR the Management Board tried coal from various cheaper sources eg}---- South America and Poland.....In both cases I seem to remember this was coal from an open seam colliery in which the coal is literally scraped from the sides of an open air seam.......These seams produce very "young" coal with low carbon content and a high yield of Ash PLUS our dear friend Iron Pyrites or CLINKER to you and me........also lots of MUD in the delivery which we had just paid ££££ for !!! On the footplate}--- for the unwary some Welsh Steam Coal when burning in the firebox had a habit of "undercutting" as it were and leaving a crust which--- after a while --- would suddenly collapse into a very thin bed indeed !!............ and you were in deep POO !!.... When it happened to me I remember my Driver sat back on his wooden seat and --------just smiled !!.."Your fault---you fix it" .... You don't forget those lessons, as learnt the hard way... Hi Alan, Opencast mining in the UK involve the same seams as the deep mines. It is jut that at the edges of the coalfield they come to the surface. Don't forget that all the UK coalfields were (at least once) covered with ice and subject to tectonic movement too, all squashing the coal and making it more dense. My geologist colleagues always reckoned the very highest quality steam coal was mined between Aberdare and Merthyr and sold to the Royal Navy late 19th early 20th centuries. They certainly stripped the mountain bare of any coal. We drilled hundreds of boreholes but couldn't find a shovel full. Pete.
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Post by jon38r80 on Dec 6, 2018 21:02:51 GMT
One of my jobs back in the 1970's was to calculate the amount of overburden to coal won from open cast mines that my company operated using site survey data and geological mapping and computer modeling of the ground and cut surfaces. Not an easy job as there is so much folding and faulting of strata in Wales. Site visits usualy were cold wet grey misty excursions and seemed to take for ever driving up tiny twisty roads ththrough the hills (or should it be mountains) Seem to remember one was called Bryn Pica. the rest have faded into the mists of time.
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Dec 6, 2018 21:47:01 GMT
One of my jobs back in the 1970's was to calculate the amount of overburden to coal won from open cast mines that my company operated using site survey data and geological mapping and computer modeling of the ground and cut surfaces. Not an easy job as there is so much folding and faulting of strata in Wales. Site visits usualy were cold wet grey misty excursions and seemed to take for ever driving up tiny twisty roads ththrough the hills (or should it be mountains) Seem to remember one was called Bryn Pica. the rest have faded into the mists of time. Bryn Pica was in Aberdare and is now a landfill site. Pete.
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