JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,906
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Post by JonL on Dec 20, 2018 19:02:38 GMT
To clarify, an overwhelming majority of the people I've met have been friendly, supportive and keen to teach. But just like complements vs. negative feedback, its easier to remember the negatives...
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Post by Oily Rag on Dec 20, 2018 22:12:27 GMT
Many times I have heard onlookers at various railways (we call them the "Foamers and Dribblers")who pontificate their knowledge to their audience that the fireman got it wrong as he is blowing off at the platform, be it full size or a 7/1/4 - 5" railway. But if he (and it is always a he) looked at his watch he will have seen that the fireman had laid his fire at the right time for an on time departure and there is a solid up hill start. A delay of two minutes due to boarding passengers and enough might be showing on the gauge glass so one cannot put more water in (remember it is an up hill climb after leaving the platform)and also the fireman might be on the platform side so he is concerned with the first and second right away so not fiddling the injector, so the kettle blew off. No big deal! Then there are those who claim it is good practice to have a feather at the right away. Not always right, one might have laid a good fire and as we get underway the fire comes about in a couple of minutes and the important needle goes to where it is needed. With coal at $250 a ton and 3 tons for two trips (one day) at the Mary Valle Rattler, we do out best to be economical. Then for example we have a solid final climb into Gympie off Deepcreek bridge coming home with the heaviest part the last 500 meters into the platform. 7 or 8 on the hook, I start preparing 4 kms from start of the final 2km climb. Getting it hot but not blowing, getting the heavy first round down at the Monkand staff station, up the first hill, pulls the fire around, that gets going, get the water at 1/3 on the way down into Deep Creek, as on the climb start it will be close to the top nut), and get stuck in fast and bomb the box hard as we go onto the bridge. The grate is flat and 8' long so you cannot just roll it in the door, it is a right hard throw to the front under the arch, especially for me it is the front right corner that I am yet to perfect better. 3" of door open, secondary air for smoke etc, needle 10 to 20 below, onto the climb and the fire has a hot bed with a fresh load on top and it comes around nicely, it sounds terrific, the feather may appear on the climb or close to it. If one gets it right, no need to touch the fire, sit on the window sill and enjoy (and lookout for the road crossings). Get the water going at least 400m from the station as the water will drop a lot as we top the climb into the Gympie platform. So from heavy slog to a stop in 150 meters leaves you with a hot boiler and hot fire but it should be dying off, throw the door open when the driver shuts off, the safeties might lift a bit till the chill from the water going in, climb down and cut off if it was the first trip, second trip is then back to shed and shunt and stable. It is enjoyable, gives one a smile if you get it right and the driver gives you a smile, but crikey it has been hot ! 50 celius on the foot plate when standing still last weekend. I drank with no exaggeration 9 -10 litres of water for the 12 hours. Managed a few feeble pees. Qld hot and humid summers ! The beer those evenings is so so sweet. For some they never consider the intrinsic rewards of fine tuning the technique of driving and firing and they never will, so do not lose any sleep over them, unless you share the cab with them. Also they are many older curmudgeons that forget that they were rough and skill less when they first started, so it is how you tutor that can make a huge difference to the pupil. I am fortunate, I have good tutors, but I had one pommy chap I had to have a 5 min conversation with a few years ago out of sight from the platform when we were running around, had to tell him to settle and remember, where I am at and I want to up the skill level, can the condescending attitude, you were once green and think about how you are tutoring. After that we got on very well. yes, very well.
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Post by Oily Rag on Dec 20, 2018 22:21:57 GMT
What I mean to say, how you approach a person and give a "tip" or advice is the art of tutoring. Drop the condescending approach, "what a fool, he cannot drive blah blah" "you should be doing this and that................." Tutoring is a more difficult skill to master than driving and I see many in these pages and out there in the ME and heritage railway world are just simply clueless tutor trainers. Give thought how you train or inform, don't give too much detail, and in fact when a trainee is moving up the skill time line, watch, but let them make a few mistakes and let them learn from the mistake when you have a chat later about it.
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,718
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Post by mbrown on Dec 20, 2018 22:35:50 GMT
That's a superb account of how a fireman thinks out the job Dazza - nine tenths of success in firing is anticipation, which you can only do well if you know your loco, the road and the coal.
In my firing days on the TR, I fired No.1 Talyllyn regularly and could get it "just so" almost every trip. Arrive at Abergynolwyn with a thin fire of Welsh coal, just beginning to show a hole, and the water at 2/3 of a glass. Then on the final pull to Nant Gwernol the pressure would hold steady, the water would drop, and as we came around Big Bend I'd put the injector on and bring the pressure back so that fire and water were just right to roll back to Aber and stand for 30 mins in the station without blowing off or making smoke.
I can't do it now, except sometimes by accident.... I don't get enough practice, the coal is less consistent and the addition of air pumps on the loco mean the fire gets pulled quiet hard whenever the pump works, so the ultra-thin fire doesn't work so well. But mostly, through lack of practice and, hence, lowered confidence, I end up putting on "another shovel full for luck"... and take comfort that no one gets a perfect trip every time!
But, as you so nicely show, its brain power rather than brute force that makes a good fireman.
Malcolm
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Post by steamer5 on Dec 20, 2018 22:37:49 GMT
Hi Dazza, You are so right, there are way less tutors than there are teachers! The difference is an art than has to been earned by quite practice The old adage for the platform experts....”Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt. OR “It's better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt !”
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by steamer5 on Dec 20, 2018 22:48:36 GMT
I have to say if some grumpy old fecker had given me grief as a youngster it would have been the end of my time at that club. If it happened now, it would be the end of his time, period. (Unless he is bigger than me!) Yes, for heaven's sake, it is a hobby, supposed to be about fun and enjoying yourself. Pete. Hi Pete, my club seemed to attract the grumpy old feckers! Most have now passed on, the biggest down side is some of them were right clever old feckers....and never passed on there skills, our local injector maker was one of them! Talking with Dad last weekend on this very subject he went to a convention some years ago at the other end of the South Island ( which given we live in the North Island is a1200 k round trip pass a ferry ride) with several of this gents injectors in his pocket, he reckons he could easily sold 3 or 5 times the number for the guy! These some bunch of grumpy feckers....& yes we still have a couple...are responsible for driving away young members, & others not joining as they are a know quality in the wider community! Cheers Kerrin
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Post by simplyloco on Dec 20, 2018 23:01:23 GMT
SNIP...& yes we still have a couple...are responsible for driving away young members, & others not joining as they are a know quality in the wider community! Cheers Kerrin I've never understood why someone who has spent a lifetime amassing knowledge and skill refuses to pass it on? I'm in the opposite camp, and so far this month this approach has yielded some very happy newcomers, and for me some St Miguel beer, a delicious box of M&S Biscuits, and this week a litre of Bombay Sapphire gin...
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Post by suctionhose on Dec 20, 2018 23:08:57 GMT
I think this is a progression with experience thing - with a bit of 'what do I want to achieve' built in. Some are happy in, having built or acquired a loco, are content to be able to get round the track on their own at a club gathering and want no more than that - we all have to respect that. Tony, you're quite right about that! The great diversity and strength among model engineers is the vast range of reasons people join in. There are people that take it too seriously, no doubt. There are high achievers that make it too competitive. There are rivet counters, patriarchs of one brand or railway company, perfectionists that never finish anything, experts that never start anything, critics of everything.... Yep the whole lot! Julian kicked off this thread with who knows what in mind and now we're on the 6th page so I guess something has come out of it - probably not much about engine driving! There is a recurrent theme of 'learning as you go', of 'raising you own expectations as you gain confidence'. You don't learn practical skills like engine handling without handling an engine. Experience will make the job easier and smoother. I posted my two video clips, not to show off, not to intimidate, not to belittle anyone. The motive was inspirational. We all start a the beginning. What differentiates Model Engineering from, well, any other pastime in my view, the length of time the journey can run for without becoming repetitive. like many folk, I started off with my Dad and piece of junk that we could afford to buy. That was 1974. By 1994, we had a track at Dad's house, another at mine. We'd travelled 4 States of Australia to attend events. We built rolling stock, engines, workshops, tools.... What a magnificent opportunity to learn! Fact is that the learning never stopped. I'm building my twelfth engine now - a 3" ploughing engine - and this one is the most challenging and interesting so far. There-in lies the reason to begin model engineering in the first place. 45 years on and still encountering new experiences - where else can you get that??? In so much as driving miniatures, as Tony says, it's about the experience that you as an individual want to have. I wouldn't drive something that I didn't make myself. I wouldn't buy something just to drive. But to succeed in recreating the slog of a 50 class on a rake of 4 wheelers is a heart warming experience. To put an engine of your own creation through its paces and have it perform well in every respect is simply an endorsement of a job well done. That's what keeps me going day after day, year after year. Nothing compares!
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Dec 21, 2018 12:33:54 GMT
Firstly, thank you Oily Rag for you great description of firing up to Gympie, although I don't know the line I could certainly feel it with you.
The comment has been made about firing "little and often" and I challenge the practicality of that maxim in a miniature loco. A number of issues mitigate against this. Firstly our coal lump sizes are anything but to scale; generally grossly oversized. Our grate openings reflect this, small stuff will fall through, with air ratios to match. Even if you could fire scale size coal you wouldn't be able to see where you are putting it. Then because we don't have a brick arch most of it would finish in the smoke box. The fireman is also the driver and many times the best place to fire is also where the road needs the greatest attention.
I am not saying firing a miniature loco is difficult but some of the full size maxims do not apply.
One still has to lay on a good fire with heat in the fire-bed ready for steam demand. One can still moderate steam pressure by use of the injector, opening the fire door and dropping back the blower. Balancing the blower and fire-door can control smoke; a certain amount of blower is required when standing to stop smoke and the open fire-door allows this without blowing off.
To my mind firing on-the-run is essential for any run over say two minutes. Similarly for using the injector, particularly if that is the only means of getting water into the boiler.
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Post by Jock McFarlane on Dec 21, 2018 14:51:12 GMT
Firstly, thank you Oily Rag for you great description of firing up to Gympie, although I don't know the line I could certainly feel it with you. The comment has been made about firing "little and often" and I challenge the practicality of that maxim in a miniature loco. A number of issues mitigate against this. Firstly our coal lump sizes are anything but to scale; generally grossly oversized. Our grate openings reflect this, small stuff will fall through, with air ratios to match. Even if you could fire scale size coal you wouldn't be able to see where you are putting it. Then because we don't have a brick arch most of it would finish in the smoke box. The fireman is also the driver and many times the best place to fire is also where the road needs the greatest attention. I am not saying firing a miniature loco is difficult but some of the full size maxims do not apply. One still has to lay on a good fire with heat in the fire-bed ready for steam demand. One can still moderate steam pressure by use of the injector, opening the fire door and dropping back the blower. Balancing the blower and fire-door can control smoke; a certain amount of blower is required when standing to stop smoke and the open fire-door allows this without blowing off. To my mind firing on-the-run is essential for any run over say two minutes. Similarly for using the injector, particularly if that is the only means of getting water into the boiler. Now there is a lot of good common sense and reality.
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Post by David on Dec 21, 2018 22:55:04 GMT
That sounds like great fun Daz!
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,900
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Post by jma1009 on Dec 22, 2018 0:07:23 GMT
To my mind firing on-the-run is essential for any run over say two minutes. Similarly for using the injector, particularly if that is the only means of getting water into the boiler. Whilst Ian wobbles in the earlier part of his post, his conclusion quoted above is something that I wholly agree with. I am having some difficulty in trying to assimilate a lot of the posts on here. It seems to confirm to me that there is huge variation of approach. I started this lark in 1983 in the IWMES club; we had senior members like Arthur Grimmett of injector fame, but who also had operated for some 12 years a commercial raised track at Sandham Park, Sandown, Isle of Wight which provided his income to support his wife Dot and his daughter Irene. Others such as Bert Brock who retired to the IOW in 1977 used to (and continued) to run the SMEE portable track at the London Exhibitions. All had their quirks and own routines. Arthur was 'the master', and we all followed his example. This was provided in a very nonchalant deprecating style typical of Arthur - very laid back, and everything had to be 'fun'! And it was fun, and always has been! Arthur had a very good stock of Welsh Steam coal in a shed north of his famous 'Aptule' works at Apse Heath. I still have some of this dating back to pre-1963! Cheer, Julian
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Dec 22, 2018 5:16:32 GMT
Julian, you were blessed to have such good tutors.
I am largely self taught. My first "drive" was Allan Wallace's (valve gear analysis fame) red/ Black 5. Allan, always cheery, offered me a drive with the advice, the fire is fine and you won't need to touch the water; I got half way round the track and ran out of steam; of course every body saw it! I then bought a 5"G Tich which I ran the wheels off until being allowed to pull passengers. My first passenger journey was a disaster; two fat ladies with kids. The boiler ran dry because I misread the glass and a tube let go. That little loco taught me a lot. What gave me confidence was another member letting me drive his excellent SAR 700 class 2-8-2. Public running had finished I was taking if for a few laps to run the fire down. I just got back to the steaming bay points when my wife who had been on canteen duties, came up wanting a ride. At this time I deliberately had almost no fire and about 30psi and water just above the bottom nut. Bob, the owner said take her for a ride! A few teaspoons of coal a little blower and slowly the fire came alive, then more coal. The pressure rose enough to get an injector going as the blower got fiercer. Quite quickly I was able to take off and finished the lap with a good glass and head of steam. I now have a 7.25"G "Simplex", 1.5 times the standard design and quite a good puller. Having a lever reverser allows me to notch up on the run; in fact most times I leave it on the first notch past mid-gear unless it struggles to get going. I have run this loco successfully on char, Gunnedah coal and the anthracite sold here a Welsh coal. Many others have struggled with the anthracite but at my city club I had no problem. However at the country club near where I now live the anthracite is quite difficult to use because there can be long waits between runs and the fire tends to go cold. At this club we have been using Gunnedah coal as used by the local preserved railways, very smoky if you fire too heavily. My loco is in dock at the moment while I do superheater repairs. The super heater is a radiant type and a hole is blown in the manifold. BTW boiler feed is axle pump, steam donkey pump (very reliable) and injector which I use to stop blowing off and just because I can. Tonight I will be driving the president's loco which is a NG 0-4-2 with a Briggs boiler. Its a commercial build. The boiler is not quite the standard Briggs pattern because the grate is forward under the back of the boiler barrel, which is stepped at the back to provide a tube plate and relative short firebox crown. (Think J type boiler in garden gauge locos). The grate is very small and set in a deep shaft. Although the coal is smoky I have been able to keep that under control quite well as I described previously. One thing about this loco is that it likes large lumps, say 2" size. I am looking forward to driving tonight because we have some new coal from Blair Athol in Qld. I saw this coal years ago on Pichi Richi and it was almost smokeless. The lump size is quite small so it will be interesting to see how the loco performs as the small lumps may choke the grate; it will test me out! Certainly a case for "little and often"; watch this space.
In terms of people being neither helpful nor encouraging. When I joined the city club the secretary took my application with a gruff "Don't think you'll drive any of those"! I thought, "I'll get your job". Sure enough I eventually became secretary and I also became one of the loco driving competency assessors.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,906
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Post by JonL on Dec 22, 2018 10:36:46 GMT
It's interesting what you say about that specific engine liking 2" lumps, it does highlight to me, as has been mentioned earlier, that no two locos are alike...
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steam4ian
Elder Statesman
One good turn deserves another
Posts: 2,069
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Post by steam4ian on Dec 22, 2018 11:26:11 GMT
Me again.
Just home from the evening running and a successful run with the Blair Athol coal.
Lighting up was quite smoky with the electric fan and then it took a long time to move the needle off 50 psi; I rough I was going to have to abort.
Once the fire is hot it is very good, much like anthracite but easier to keep going; however recovery was slower than Gunnedah coal. Smoke at the station could be controlled by juggling the blower and fire door. At least with this coal there wasn't that yellow/green flocculence from the stack when the blower was turned off. I fired two shovels full two/three times during each 1.2km run and another two at the station with a rake through at the station about every second run.
A colleague who owns/drives a 7.25" model of Dolgoch, with conventional copper boiler, still made smoke but I think that is accounted for by his comparatively larger grate and firing technique; otherwise he ran without any problems in that department
My verdict, definitely a success.
We got our supply in a 2cum bulky bag from a kindred club; it was graded from bean size to walnut size..
To Auzzie clubs this well worth trying to get hold of, particularly if the larger Bacchus Marsh char is not forthcoming.
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Post by Cro on Dec 22, 2018 22:15:36 GMT
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Post by cplmickey on Dec 22, 2018 22:38:45 GMT
That's someone on top of their game and who knows the engine and the track. No fuss. A joy to watch.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 23, 2018 0:18:19 GMT
Hello everyone,
Adam---- is that yourself at the regulator ??...........I see it was posted by Sue Cro...
Does anyone know how to rotate that video by 90 degrees ??
What is the loco ??......Looks BR Standard of some sort ??
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Post by Cro on Dec 23, 2018 10:31:04 GMT
Hello everyone, Adam---- is that yourself at the regulator ??...........I see it was posted by Sue Cro... Does anyone know how to rotate that video by 90 degrees ?? What is the loco ??......Looks BR Standard of some sort ?? It was my aunt filming me driving a couple years ago around Beech Hurst on a BR Std 5 'Camelot'. A joy to drive that machine, it's my favourite loco out there and I'm waiting for the day to get my hands on her properly. The only thing I would look at is the use of the reverser as it's almost impossible to notch it back so sadly it's always driven in full gear. Beech Hurst makes it very easy to drive locos especially the bigger ones like this as you know when to fire to have the loco ready for the next lap and where to balance things to keep them calm so they are not blowing off or wasting steam. You can get into quite a rhythm with them but you do get the odd hairy lap which keeps you in your toes. Adam
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,906
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Post by JonL on Dec 23, 2018 12:21:39 GMT
As I've only done a tiny bit of driving so far I'm still a bit vague on certain aspects of the reverser. On a "Normal" reverser (a signal box style lever, not sure of the correct terminology) you can see when its in the central position, fully forward or back, but with a screw reverser (as I'll have on my Brit) I'm assuming the only way to tell is by feel and experience, or physically looking out at the lifting arm? Before I started looking into it I almost assumed they would have some sort of indicator like a ships telegraph but that doesn't appear to be the case?
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