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Post by delaplume on Dec 26, 2019 23:19:32 GMT
OO-errrrr........5 months have passed and no entry from myself.........Too much time on Club activities etc... Of late I've been following Steve ( Springcrocus ) and his Britannia Boiler build....and have commented about how the Brit. and Bear fireboxes are almost identical.....Indeed I recently bought a Cast Iron grate from our friends at Blackgates and with just the min. of alteration it went straight in !!...... Here are a couple of schematics}------- Remember gentle reader that The Bear was designed, built and put into revenue earning service as Britains first Pacific in early 1908... Just for interest sake here's a Wiki of major events in 1907 ( the year of construction ) and 1908 ------- worldhistoryproject.org/1907en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Dec 26, 2019 23:36:03 GMT
If you fast forward to the Collet era ad put a Castle or King cab upon the Bear. She becomes even more impressive and the crew get a bit more comfort. Plus a place to put the rear wheel out of the way of the fire as the oil experts catch up with high temperature blends suitable. A bit like putting a false funnel on titanic but it instead acted as a ventilator and made her more impressive!
David, returning to the workshop to hide from GWR flack.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 26, 2019 23:45:55 GMT
Cheers David !!--------- Hope to see Lilly and your good self again in the Summer.......I wonder what's happened to the 7.25" Bear that the late Ted Martin was building ??
I gave him some spare York GWR Bear drawings that I had acquired..........He gave me an afternoon's drive on a Large Prairie !!.........fair do's !!
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Dec 27, 2019 23:36:56 GMT
I think that the Wonderful High Wycombe Boys who have looked after he whole site may have rescued. On our last visit it was very OBVIOUS that the House was very LOCKED UP!!!
We will have to keep our eyes open on various sites just in case Dreweatts for one and they are very local in Newbury!!
So happy that you got to have a drive round.
David and Lily.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 30, 2019 0:18:06 GMT
The trailing axle assy. was not the usual pony truck type of thing but a Radial Axlebox......and given that the bearing surfaces were behind the wheel plus in close proximity to the full width firebox then it came as no surprise that it was forever "Wiping" the white metal surfaces... This would require a trip to Swindon and new surfaces made and fitted.... During my research I found that the Big prairies and the 56xx radial axleboxes are the same dimentions and castings for models are commercially available, so that's handy then... However, as I need to be able to remove the ashpan and grate for disposal etc. I have designed the radial box as a removeable pony truck instead....
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Dec 30, 2019 0:42:45 GMT
From Reeves via their 5100 6100 castings says he with now 2 sets to bash some day. Go on you know you want to 3D Print it out Alan!! He jokes. Do a long bar as the radius is quite long and this gets the removable bolt well out of the way of anything hot. Churchward would have used the STANDARD set up so they will be the same. I will look up the Radius next time I am in the Workshop.
Best Regards. David and Lily.
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Post by delaplume on Dec 30, 2019 11:28:44 GMT
From Reeves via their 5100 6100 castings says he with now 2 sets to bash some day. Go on you know you want to 3D Print it out Alan!! He jokes. Do a long bar as the radius is quite long and this gets the removable bolt well out of the way of anything hot. Churchward would have used the STANDARD set up so they will be the same. I will look up the Radius next time I am in the Workshop. Best Regards. David and Lily. Hello David, Yes, I was forgetting that you have Trevor's own Large 2-6-2T.........If you get a few mins. spare could you take some photos of the underside of that radial axlebox set-up ?? ( I'm assuming that the model does have a radial box ? ).....I took many of the 56xx at Horsehay when they were restoring it years ago but have "lost" them in my image collection.... In my drawings of No. 111 I have shown a long, 1/2" dia. flanged stud fixed into the front,upper part of the rear sub-frame and passing downwards between the frame plates.... At the front of the pony truck is the usual bush which engages over the stud and is held by a Nylock nut...........The pony truck bearings are inside a rectangular-sectioned, full width Bronze block with a detachable bottom plate.....Attached to the plate are a pair of short grease nipples... This forms a sort of Cannon axlebox which will be filled with high temp. grease...The top of the axlebox will slide on a polished steel plate which in turn is attached to a collection of springs for vertical control....The total lateral movement is estimated to be about 1 inch approx..and controlled by springs on top of the axlebox applied to a vertical plate rising up from the top of the axlebox. So from the outside it should still look as per prototype but can be removed simply and quickly at the end of the running day... This may well be subject to adjustments according to actual space limitations when these items are assembled on the loco...........I have kept Malcolm High busy over the last couple of years supplying me with the raw basic frame plates not only for the loco but the tender as well.........I have many labelled Boxes of finished and part-finished items all awaiting the "Call to arms" as it were..
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Post by delaplume on Jan 4, 2020 1:52:44 GMT
Here's a proposed Pacific from the Hawksworth era at Swindon.........Nothing ever came of it as the Castles /Kings of the day could handle any traffic and steam was soon to finish anyway.....The nearest to it might be Stanier's Princess Royals and later on the Duchess ??
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Jan 5, 2020 0:20:15 GMT
Here's a proposed Pacific from the Hawksworth era at Swindon.........Nothing ever came of it as the Castles /Kings of the day could handle any traffic and steam was soon to finish anyway.....The nearest to it might be Stanier's Princess Royals and later on the Duchess ?? It is probably just as well this loco was never built (and Hawksworth always denied the idea ever existed!) The sketch is therefore highly speculative, but the outside cylinders are placed in the same position as the Kings (etc) and the Princess Royals, where the frame is weakest and the cylinder diameter is restricted by the proximity of the bogie wheels and the clearance they needed. The Kings stretched the cylinders to the max possible in that location, and Stanier did not repeat his mistake in the Duchesses. So a Pacific in this form would have had little or no power advantage over the Kings, (other than from a higher boiler pressure) and would have suffered similar route restrictions. I don't think the imminent end of steam was a factor though. At the time (in the closing stages of WW2) Hawksworth had no reason to suppose things would change anytime soon, and Riddles made the same miscalculation a few years later, and with less good reason. -Gary
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Jan 5, 2020 2:08:37 GMT
Just catching up on this. Yes And I have some full sized photos as well. For a quickie go to Station Road Steam and open Archive. On the left click 3rd DOT down on Projects. Page 29 shows an axlebox from the top. Page 38 shows a the springs added!
I have a Little List of Prairie Pages. Oh have a glance at page 12 the 1500 here is where Roger must have got his inspiration from and indeed me!!
Love David and Lily.
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baldric
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 208
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Post by baldric on May 19, 2020 12:22:01 GMT
I an not sire of you already have this, but the GWS have just put the GA on their Facebook page, you should be able to view it without an account. / Sorry it is not a clickable link, not sure how to do that from my phone. Baldric.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 9:02:49 GMT
well spotted Baldric, not sure if Alan is on FB to get the raw image... assuming not, here it is. I also grabbed the two images that Alan Gelson has posted of his own model, alan has probably seen these but just in case... Pete
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Post by Cro on May 22, 2020 11:21:27 GMT
I'm fairly confident in saying that is the late Ted Martins Bear.
Adam
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Post by delaplume on May 22, 2020 12:34:36 GMT
Hello all,
My apologies for not apparently replying to Baldric, Pete and Adam earlier on........For some unknown reason these didn't get flagged up in the "Participated" heading.....
Pete, you're quite right, I'm not on Facebook so did not see that GA.....However I do have 3 separate sheets at AO size from York which when overlaid give the full picture......Many thanks to you Pete for the on-line version as I can store that in my PC archives..It's also much easier to access on screen ( usually at 3 in the morning !! ) than having to unroll the paper drawings....
Joyce and I were very fortunate to have visited Ted Martin on 2 occasions and did indeed see his own Bear loco whilst under construction...If that one in the photographs is 7.25" gauge then yes, it could well be the late Ted Martin's........
Having seen those two photographs I was wondering if,--- after the virus threat has been cleared , ---- I might be allowed to visit and view the model, take photos, talk "Tech stuff" etc ??
Incidentally from a newly finished boiler seen recently it would appear that there is a 3.5" gauge model under construction somewhere in the West Country perhaps ??
Thanks to you all for these postings....My workshop is a One Man Band affair with several locos in varying stages of either build or restoration and it's hard to keep motivated and steer oneself in the right direction...
Alan
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,909
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Post by JonL on May 23, 2020 10:26:12 GMT
...My workshop is a One Man Band affair with several locos in varying stages of either build or restoration and it's hard to keep motivated and steer oneself in the right direction... Alan I am the same, when I am in the mood I can make huge progress, but if the mood doesn't take me I don't see the inside of my shop for days.
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Post by delaplume on May 23, 2020 10:48:13 GMT
I find having several projects on the go at once, and in different stages of "Progress" as it were, tends to reflect how it was at the SVR when I was a volunteer and then a contractor...
So I operate my workshop as a 5" gauge version of Bridgnorth.....It works for me anyway..
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 11:39:13 GMT
Me too, hardly been in the workshop at all since this virus begun. Like you Nobby, I've just not been in the mood which is very unlike me. I have also been a little pre-occupied with my car.. I want to get her back in shape..In fact after getting the MOT next week, yes she will pass with flying colours I may get stuck in more.. Once the MOT is done I'm considering removing the Dash to cover it in leather myself as I think my son may be too busy. Can't do anything until Porsche re-opens and sends the parts that were ordered pre covid. Trouble is' that's a long job and I know it won't stop there, could be a while before much more is done to 4472.
Pete
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Post by steamer5 on Jun 9, 2020 8:10:50 GMT
Hi Alan, Found this while YouTube surfing..... youtu.be/OXpTHJIIDfAI had a look back on here but didn’t see it posted......probably didn’t go far enuff back. Anyway enjoy if you haven’t seen it. Cheers Kerrin
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Post by delaplume on Jun 9, 2020 11:11:28 GMT
Hello Kerrin and many thanks for posting that video.....
No, I don't recall seeing it before......As expected it raised various ideas as to why No.111 was built in the first place--- especially as Curchward's Star 4-6-0 locos were turning in some excellent results on an everyday basis......
I don't hold with the view that it was either a "Failure" or a success ...
My feeling is that Churchward was by nature a Research engineer and The Bear was no more than his R & D vehicle created to try out various ideas with an eye on increasing future passenger loads.....Remember, all this took place in the early years of the 20th century.....with The Bear being introduced into traffic in early 1908....ie before The Titanic had even been thought of !!.. and well before 1,000 ton presses were available in this country to make 1-piece throatplates for example..
A lot of experiences gained can be seen in later loco types......eg}-- The enlarged cylinders and Piston valves used in the King....whilst if you look at Wm. Stanier's first Princess Royal the firebox is almost identical in appearance when viewed rearwards from the centre driver axle...
I can tell you that with Julian's help, a set of plans from York Museum and the application of modern draughting formulae a few years ago I'm confident that the front end draughting is wrong and that the overall set-up would have given a very soft blast indeed....
I would dearly love to see that 7.25" gauge one again and get some close-up views of how the firebox is supported and the ashpan / grate assy is removed.....Does anyone have any contact details ??.................
Best regards
Alan
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Post by suctionhose on Jun 10, 2020 7:41:53 GMT
Hello Alan. Is it possible this loco was a foray (for the GWR) into an unproven concept, purely to evaluate its merits?
I suggest this with the agenda in mind to comment on the fact New Zealand had the first 4-6-2 'Pacific', a Baldwin creation... And being in New Zealand, if it was an embarrassment, who would find out???
Likewise, the first Garratt type proved itself on an obscure line, the North East Dundas Tramway, on the West Coast of Tasmania where it rains 360 days of the year. Where it a dud, nobody would ever know...
Almost ironic that both designs became enormously successful.
I guess the GWR at least had the confidence to roll out the Bear in front of a critical public audience who could have viciously condemned the whole episode on the basis of being unhappy with the cab or something equally superficial...
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