Improved engine green

[miken]

Stroudleys famous Improved engine green is usually described as being a golden ochre colour. There are examples of locomotives thus painted at the Bluebell railway, NRM and the famous model Como by Dr Badbury Winter.
Phoenix Precision paints list this colour in their LBSCR range. I have a small tin of this paint and it is as it appears on the website. ie, its a chocolate brown colour, nothing at all how the famous colour is usually described.

www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/pregroup/lbscrpregroup/50p476g

I was curious so I rang Phoenix and asked the question. There was a bit of a sigh down the phone, and i was told that the examples in museums and preserved railways are incorrect and that the precision paints colour is right and was matched to an original unfaded sample. I didnt know how to respond to that so said "I see" and left it at that.

Any thoughts or comments on this?

[Deleted]

I'm sure that Bob (92220), when he see's your post will be able to give you a detailed answer.

Cheers

Pete

[92220]

Hi Miken.

I matched the Phoenix Paints colours. The LBSCR Stroudley 'Improved' Engine Green, IS indeed a Golden Ochre. Como was painted in actual LBSCR paint, so is correct. The other examples around the Country may or may not be correct. I can't say without a comparison with my old sample of LBSCR paint.
Also, the Western diesel (can't remember the name or number) that was painted 'Golden Ochre' is/was EXACTLY the same colour because it was painted with some LBSCR paint that BR found in the old Eastleigh loco works. The colour I produced for Phoenix was identical. If the colour you have is labelled 'Improved Engine Green', and is not a Golden Ochre then there must have been an unfortunate error in labelling of the tin.

Bob.

[miken]

Thanks for the reply Bob,
I dont think there has been an error in the labeling on the tin because both the paint inside the tin and the colour on the outside of the tin lid look exactly like the colour shown on the web site here:
www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/pregroup/lbscrpregroup/50p476g
Maybe its my eyes but to me it looks more brown than gold ochre.
What do you make of the colour shown on the webpage?

[jma1009]

Hi Mike,

We did discuss all of this on here, and although I did a search this morning, I have yet to find it!

To recap what was discussed (and I hope my memory is correct, and apologies if not), Jim Scott wasn't happy with his Pheonix paint for his 5"g Terrier, neither were the Brighton Circle with theirs, so both got Craftsman Paints to make up batches of enamel.

There was nothing wrong with Bob's original specification, and I have seen many miniature locos with the 'old' Precision Paints LBSCR Stroudley 'improved engine green'(IEG), and the colour is 'just right' in my judgement.

But something seems to have gone a bit awry with the Brighton Circle incident, and your link above indicates something quite serious is wrong with your can and the current website example which is a rather insipid 'brown' rather like the Humbrol gloss brown enamel!

Jim, Bob and myself all corresponded privately over all this.

I prepared a document (which is on my old stack computer) setting out all the known references I had on the IEG livery, and Bob very generously published on Ed Cloutman's 7.25"g Terrier build all his own livery notes on IEG and the Stroudley livery.

I too have inspected 'Como' in Brighton Museum.

Cheers,

Julian

[GeorgeRay]

The Brighton Circles Craftsman paint was matched with Como specially taken out of its display case by the Brighton museum for the exercise. The HMRS publication Southern Style pt2 has colour patches matched to the LBSC colours and surprisingly the IEG does look a bit chocolaty.
George Ray

[miken]

Julian/George, I have a friend who is a long standing member of the Brighton Circle. I will have a chat with him about it.In the meantime, can you confirm. Did you actually mean Craftsman or Craftmaster paints?
Thanks MN

[jma1009]

Hi Mike,

(Walks 10 feet to look at Jim Scott's tin of paint!) Yes, Craftmaster Paints, not Craftman! Apologies!

Cheers,
Julian

[jma1009]

Apr 16, 2019 20:23:51 GMT GeorgeRay said:

The Brighton Circles Craftsman paint was matched with Como specially taken out of its display case by the Brighton museum for the exercise. The HMRS publication Southern Style pt2 has colour patches matched to the LBSC colours and surprisingly the IEG does look a bit chocolaty.
George Ray

But 'Como' doesn't look 'chocolaty'!

It should be a deep complex typically Victorian colour, of stale mustard, or a deep golden yellow ochre. 'Tan' would be an approximation but does not do justice to the actual colour and it's depth.

Cheers,

Julian

[Jim Scott]

Hi Mike

This subject has been aired many times on this forum, some of the more recent comments are on Carl Haymes’ Grosvenor thread at modeleng.proboards.com/thread/10681/grosvenor Carl’s beautifully painted tender is what I always thought IEG should be, a lovely golden yellow colour.

When I opened my tin of Phoenix IEG my reaction was exactly as yours, - it is brown. However, when applied it is exactly the colour of the archive match sample that Bob (92220) sent to Julian and me for comparison purposes. As George Rae mentions above, the members of the Brighton Circle also thought it too brown and so did their own colour match to the original paint on the model Como. Although I couldn’t find anyone who still had sample of the original BC paint I did ask Craftmaster Paints to produce another 1 litre mixed to the same specification, thinking it would be much closer to the colour I expected. In fact it is practically the same colour as the Phoenix offering, perhaps a shade lighter.

When these two versions of IEG are applied side by side the difference is noticeable but slight. However, you will have to look pretty hard at my 5”Terrier to realise that one wheelset is a slightly darker shade than the other two. Also, the colour when applied over a grey primer changes somewhat and larger surfaces appear lighter than might be expected.

I now accept that both of these versions of IEG are very close to the original and alas, the lovely golden yellow ochre on my old photos of Boxhill in the 1980’s are probably incorrectly reproduced. But the bottom line is, if you’re building the model you can paint it any colour you like – everyone will see it differently anyway....

Jim S

[92220]

Apr 16, 2019 10:25:16 GMT miken said:

Thanks for the reply Bob,
I dont think there has been an error in the labeling on the tin because both the paint inside the tin and the colour on the outside of the tin lid look exactly like the colour shown on the web site here:
www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/pregroup/lbscrpregroup/50p476g
Maybe its my eyes but to me it looks more brown than gold ochre.
What do you make of the colour shown on the webpage?

Hi Mike.

I found the sample panel I kept when I sold the business and when I hold it up to the screen it looks very similar. However, when I look at it in daylight, it is 3 or 4 shades lighter! The problem may well be that you are comparing the colours under artificial light, and on a computer screen, and all the Precision colours were matched under good daylight conditions, which is the only way to arrive at a correct colour match. The problem is that artificial light is always deficient in some colour, and this effects the colour that the eye sees. Generally this will also mean that the eye will see the colour as darker under artificial light as well. Another problem with comparing the paint colours is that if it is just the colour spot on the lid of the tin that is used to compare, this will ALWAYS look darker than it really is. The eye needs a colour patch of at least 1.5" square to see the true colour. Anything less and it looks progressively darker as the colour patch gets smaller. Another problem with looking at the Precision colour on their website is that the colour patch would almost certainly be a scanned patch, and the scanner may not produce a true colour match, and the computer screen that it is viewed on will definitely not show a perfect match. The only way to get a true comparison is to brush out the paint on a piece of white plasticard and allow to dry for 24 hours, then look at it under good daylight but not bright sunlight, at some time between 11am and 3pm. Outside these times and the daylight is progressively deficient in some colours. Sorry to be so technical but colour matching is a very complicated process and not easily understood without explanation. 

Bob.

[miken]

I painted a couple of coats onto a square of white paper as suggested.Here it is outside in the light after drying for a couple of days.
Anyone else think it looks brown?
In fact, I think its more like my shed than golden ochre! Which btw is Cuprinol Harvest brown



Heres a sample from a loco in the NRM

[92220]

Hi Mike.

Unfortunately photographs and computer screens will never show the true colour. You only have to look at the photo oi64 and the right hand section of colour is very much darker than the left hand one. The only way that colours can be compared is side by side by direct viewing. One major problem with LBSCR 'Improved' Engine Green is that most comparisons are made against Boxhill. I'm not sure if the loco has been repainted in recent years, but when it was at Clapham Museum, it was in paint that was applied by the LMS and the used standard Yellow Ochre, which was too light. The sample I have was matched to actual LBSCR paint so I am happy that it is correct. As I only have the one sample I can't send you a piece, but if you can send me a piece of your brushing, I will compare it with my sample.

Bob.

[danlank]

I know Gladstone and Boxhill won’t have been repainted in some time, but I know Stepney has been repainted regularly in preservation, so plenty of opportunities to tweak any colour issues. Is there a feeling that Stepney’s colour is wrong?

I’ve only seen Waddon on screen, but looks much more of an orangey yellow to me...

[Deleted]

hi Miken

Perhaps try doing a small section of the white/black and red lining on your test piece to see how it looks. Also, your test piece is in daylight, the NRM picture is indoors and using a flash?
When I first painted 4472's wheels I thought the colour looked wrong, I know now that it isn't, you just have to have more of the painting completed such as lining for it to come alive. I know nothing of your livery, I would, however, trust in the colour if from Pheonix or Craftmaster. If you are on facebook, try asking Heritage painting what they think, I have approached them before for answers on 4472's livery.

cheers

Pete

[miken]

Apr 21, 2019 14:24:28 GMT 92220 said:

I can't send you a piece, but if you can send me a piece of your brushing, I will compare it with my sample.

Bob.

Thanks for the offer Bob. PM me your address and I will do so.
MN.

[92220]

Hi Mike.

On a slightly different note; the colour is almost always referred to as 'Improved Engine Green', and this is also considered to be the official name for the colour. Can we really believe that the board of directors accepted that name when the colour was so very obviously not 'Green'? I can't believe they were ALL colour blind like Stroudley! The Goods Loco colour was a dark Green, and was introduced before the 'Improved Engine Green'. I have always wondered if the colour was more possibly labelled as 'Improvement on Engine Green', and over the years the name has just been shortened to 'Improved Engine Green'.

Bob.

I've just PM'd you Mike.

[jo479]

On a different note again, this reminds me of Wallasey (Merseyside) buses, which years ago were painted quite a nice shade of Cream, that was actually called "Sea Green", the explanation I was given was someone from the office came down and asked one of the painters what colour was he using, he replied "see Green" the foreman's name, this is now folklore, but a reasonable explanation all the same

[miken]

I've just PM'd you Mike.[/quote][/div]

Thanks Bob

[jma1009]

Hi Mike,

You undeniably have plain common 'brown' paint from your tin.

It is nothing like on 'Como', or Bob's paint he sold as Stroudley 'Improved Engine Green'/ Golden Ochre.

Something has gone amiss. Even given the vicissitudes of computer images etc, one cannot but help consider what you have in your tin is just brown paint, not the deep lustre of Stroudley's Golden Ochre of his 'IMG'.

Cheers,

Julian