Midland
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Post by Midland on May 2, 2019 13:45:13 GMT
Ed Thanks for all of that. Now that I am released from potting shed, summer house patio et al making I can get back to mine. Yours is a very tidy version compared to mine. My pipework is horrible and I think I will have to modify the rear truck to come off easier so I can clean the ash pan. Also the pipes run right through it all now. Glad to have inspired you to have a look at her again. I am sure I will learn a lot from you, thanks in advance. And yes a straight ided tender wouod look more 1930s! Cheers David
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Post by ettingtonliam on May 2, 2019 14:03:59 GMT
Oh! £21-17s for all the castings! I went looking for Clarksons about 1983, because I needed some grey iron castings making for a job at work, but they had gone by then. The journey wasn't wasted though, because Adams Hydraulics who mainly made (may still make) castings for the water and sewage industry were just down the road back then, and they ended up doing the job for me. A foundry on the edge of York city centre would be completely unacceptable these days.
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JonL
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Post by JonL on May 3, 2019 19:04:57 GMT
Have we lost Myford?
That Princess looks incredible.
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 11:38:07 GMT
Hi All Roger suggested I made this a new thread, and I must admit this makes sense. I have left the original on my Terrier thread as it shows all the interested parties and the posts of some of you, but from now on I will keep the Terrier stuff separate. I have been away for a few days to Winchester where I used to live. It was a sad occasion because it was the funeral of my old friend Barry Eden. Barry and I joined the Southampton Society of Model Engineers at about the same time in 1964. He was a perfectionist and always managed to drive my Bassett-Lowke tank engine much better than me. The service was a wonderful celebration of Barry's life and was full of friends from all the different ventures that Barry was involved with from full-size, 10.25in gauge to the smaller gauges. I also visited the track at Cobden Meadows and chatted with some of the 'newer' members. One original member I met was Merlin Biddlecome, who was involved in the construction of the track. I also met 'Midland'. It is nice to put a face to one of our Forum members. But he has got me all riled-up and put me in a quandary! We started talking about 'The Princess Royal' and he is trying to persuade me to finish mine. I bought mine part-built in the 1960s - the complicated boiler was made, which has a long combustion chamber with water tubes, and all the workmanship was superb. The Clarkson drawings were also very good so I began finishing it off. There were bits of the chassis made, in fact quite a lot of the small motion parts, but the wheels and cranks needed to be made, and most of the chassis needed putting together and fitted. I decided to set the cranks to give eight beats as I thought this would make for a smoother exhaust. It was in the 1980s that I really got to work on it and then I was made redundant and started to finish it off with the idea of selling it. Then I thought - this will not make as much money as a couple of 7.25in gauge 'Terriers' - hence the change of tack and the shelving of the Princess. Then a job came along designing golf courses so both got shelved and there was also a house move. It is now in retirement that I began to work more consistently on the Terriers, hence the caution about changing tack again to finish the Princess. I have decided Dave, that I will have a look at her and see just how much needs to be done to get her running. I know she needs a cab, and at some point a tender. She is a very large and powerful 3.5in gauge engine having four-cylinders and a very large boiler. In fact I suspect the water capacity is about the same as the 7.25in gauge Terriers! So I have enclosed a few images, one taken many years ago when I had more hair which shows the size of her! I have a hydrostatic lubricator, based on Fred Cottam's design, but with no atomising valve. I have never run her on air so have no idea if the valve gear is correct. The ports seem to open fully and evenly! I have a two-start acme thread on the reverser, to make reversing less of a hassle with a screw reverser on an up-and-down track. The first job is to get it on a part of the bench that is workable. My workshop is so small that one of the Terriers will have to be moved back and their places swapped. Watch this space! Side Elevations by ed cloutman, on Flickr Front view by ed cloutman, on Flickr LHS Detail by ed cloutman, on Flickr Backhead detail by ed cloutman, on Flickr Safety Valves by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 11:49:39 GMT
Wow! that got quite a response. I took the boiler off this afternoon - quite a tough job because I forgot how I put it together all those years ago. But a sixth sense seemed to work and I got it apart, though it seems far more fiddly than I remember. Bad eyesight and shaky hands do not help! There is quite a lot of work to do. I realised I had not machined the ports for the centre cylinders, though that is a fairly simple job on the Myford mill. Everything previous was done on the Myford Super Seven. The safety valves are semi-pop and set at different pressures. Sad about the bung over the regulator, but that is how Jackson designed it so that one could oil the regulator! Most of it is Jackson except the details were taken from photos I took of Princess Elizabeth when she was at the Bulmers Cyder Works in Hereford. I also did my own live and exhaust pipework to the cylinders to make them smooth bends. Quite complicated to take apart and put together. When I finally take it apart to paint it, I shall have to make a chart to get the order right. The original had round rather than oval buffers. These were later riveted on I seem to remember. There is a bit of light rust and a few patches of verdigris on the brass. Unfortunately I stupidly designed the workshop under the bathroom when we built our extension many years ago. The bathroom has had a few floods over the years and it runs straight through into the workshop! I made the two pumps work in tandem to save pipework and used two rather than one big one, as the large pump on my Bassett-Lowke tank engine actually makes the loco pulse backwards and forwards when the pump is full on! Most of the pipework is done. I do not much like Jackson's hand brake so will probably leave that off for now. There are two saddle supports for the smokebox which I removed to get at the cylinders. These I fabricated in steel. There is no grate or ashpan as yet. The loco is very stiff and needs some running on compressed air with plenty of oil. I think I have used 'O' rings throughout. The cylinders need drain cocks so that will need thinking about. Chassis by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 11:55:20 GMT
I thought some of you might be interested to see these, taken from one of Clarkson's catalogues in the 1960s. I met Clarkson and went to his workshop, then much later I was thumbing my way through some books in a bookshop in York, and it must have been soon after he died, because they were his books. I bought quite a few of them. The pages following the Princess are for the Duchess. I have been thinking of making the Straight-sided Fowler tender rather than the Stanier as it would make driving easier and is not as common as the Stanier one. Any thoughts? Clarkson03 by ed cloutman, on Flickr Clarkson04 by ed cloutman, on Flickr Clarkson01 by ed cloutman, on Flickr Clarkson02 by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 11:57:50 GMT
Hi Dave - great meeting you at the weekend even though Monday was a sad day. Made me feel like building in 10.25in gauge after the visit to the Lakeside Railway though! Please give me any help regarding ashpan etc as I have to make mine and did not realise the pony truck might be in the way. Martyn may be able to help us with that. I eventually got the centre cylinders out, but there is a strict order, which means first removing the outside cylinders complete with coupling rods as the motion bracket gets in the way. Not a beginner's model! I found that the ports were there - it is just that I had covered them with masking tape to keep dirt out! Bad eyesight and dreadful memory prevail! I think I shall have to fit drain cocks so any help on the best steam or wire operated ones would be appreciated. I am going to use 'O' rings for the pistons and all the places that require packing as I have done with my other locos. Can anyone advise me on the best sealant these days for metal-to-metal joints as I prefer these to gaskets as they throw alignments out - unless there is a very fine gasket material that you could advise on? I have been able to check the quartering, and there is one slight tight spot, but I suspect a few hours running will sort that out. It is amazing the power of cylinders. I can turn the wheels by hand with great difficulty on the Terriers, but on compressed air they shoot away and I cannot stop them however hard I apply the brakes! Centre cylinder ports by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 12:05:17 GMT
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timb
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Post by timb on May 4, 2019 12:38:22 GMT
Tis a fine looking loco! I cannot believe you had this 'under the bench' so to speak! I am looking forward to finding more about it as you move it along.
Tim
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 12:57:57 GMT
Thanks Tim - I have just taken a picture of the boiler on the bench and it is massive. I was going to turn it over to take a pic of the firebox and combustion chamber but at the moment I am likely to break a handrail so will have to think about it. One of the reasons I got disillusioned and hence started designing my own locos was the large plug over the firebox. I suspect I can find ways of making this smaller, but it is an historic model by Jackson and that was seen as fairly normal at the time. I suppose you could look at it as provenance! Also, as was the custom in the 1950s, the boiler is very well made and silver-soldered throughout except for the stays which are screwed, nutted on the inside and caulked with soft-solder. Not a problem if well done, except it makes boiler repairs very difficult and one cannot silver-solder again. However the boiler has been hydraulically tested to 200psi and no leaks! I plan running it at 90psi or even lower, probably 75psi. But today we have such fine modellers as this Forum shows and both the above would be frowned upon. There are two reasons for the plug. The first is that it was the only way to fit the vertical steam pipe to the regulator, and secondly it was for oiling, though I have never oiled a regulator in my life! Fortunately on the Terriers this is under the large dome and has easy access. The boiler needs a grate and ashpan and I plan to fit a snifting valve to the wet header. There is a pipe running along the outside of the boiler for the blower and blower jets need fitting. Boiler by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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Post by terrier060 on May 4, 2019 18:20:26 GMT
I have had the cylinders apart and there are a couple of problems. The guy who machined the cylinders placed the screws for the end covers right in line with the drain cocks! So for the centre cylinders, which do not have any lugs for the drain cocks cast into them, I thought I might try the Spencer design taken from "Locomotive Management from Cleaning to Driving" by Hodgeson and Williams. As they cannot be seen, I can offset the steam outlets and I only need to use small banjo fittings. The great advantage of these is that all four drains can be operated from one point with only one exhaust pipe. The outside cylinders pose more of a problem as the screw holding the rear covers is directly in line. But there are lugs in the castings for drain cocks, so there is more room to manoeuvre. As a good friend of mine told me 'the only part of a thread that does any work is a length equivalent to its diameter' , I may just get away with it if I drill the holes as inboard as possible on the casting lugs. Because these are visible, I will modify the conventional steam operated drain cocks taken from "The Handbook for Railway and Steam Locomotive Enginemen by the British Transport Commission" (BTC). Multiple drain cock operation by steam by Spencer by ed cloutman, on Flickr Steam operated drain cocks from BTC by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 5, 2019 9:10:23 GMT
Ed,
I believe some experimental work regarding screw fixings has been undertaken, and if I remember correctly, anything more than 2 1/2 threads is superfluous.
Having said that, I wouldn't rely on just that short a threaded fixing, but for some fine threads, the minimum fixing length would be far less than the diameter.
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Midland
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Post by Midland on May 5, 2019 9:16:12 GMT
Have we lost Myford? That Princess looks incredible. Myford is now with RDG tools I think. D
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Post by terrier060 on May 5, 2019 11:41:50 GMT
Yes Dave - I see they are back online now and apparently still making the Myford lathes?! REALLY good news!
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Post by terrier060 on May 5, 2019 11:45:42 GMT
Several questions for you experts:
1. I don't suppose anyone has any full-size drawings of the Fowler tender shown in the picture of the Princess in the post above?? Martyn has kindly sent me the Jackson drawing, but you know me - if I can get the full-size one so much the better. 2. What is the best modern material to make the disc valve in the multi-drain cock valve shown above? I will do some drawings in due course and publish them. Could be useful for many of you, especially for inside cylinder locos. 3. Does modern model boiler testing still allow screwed stays with soft-solder caulking? If not I am buggered! The boiler has been hydraulically tested in the past to 200psi with no leaks. As far as I remember the copper is 1/8 inch thick and the boiler is very heavy! The soldering looks professionally done.
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Midland
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Post by Midland on May 5, 2019 12:01:11 GMT
Several questions for you experts: 1. I don't suppose anyone has any full-size drawings of the Fowler tender shown in the picture of the Princess in the post above?? Martyn has kindly sent me the Jackson drawing, but you know me - if I can get the full-size one so much the better. 2. What is the best modern material to make the disc valve in the multi-drain cock valve shown above? I will do some drawings in due course and publish them. Could be useful for many of you, especially for inside cylinder locos. 3. Does modern model boiler testing still allow screwed stays with soft-solder caulking? If not I am buggered! The boiler has been hydraulically tested in the past to 200psi with no leaks. As far as I remember the copper is 1/8 inch thick and the boiler is very heavy! The soldering looks professionally done. Hi Ed I have the Don Young drawings for the Crab from LLAS. This si about as close as one can get I think. Can email them or print them. Will you be at Doncaster? David
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Midland
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Post by Midland on May 5, 2019 12:09:04 GMT
Ed Just checked, I have the works drawings in Loco profile #4 so can scan them and email. Will try to find the differences from the Crab ones later. I would like to have one as well so we may have to biuld two together!!! Davids
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Post by terrier060 on May 5, 2019 12:57:17 GMT
That sounds a great idea! I could CNC some of the parts!
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Post by terrier060 on May 5, 2019 18:21:20 GMT
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Post by terrier060 on May 6, 2019 9:08:32 GMT
This shows the offset required to miss the bogie and the end cover studs that the previous owner drilled directly inline with the drain cocks on the rear covers. The ports are a bit untidy as well, but I don't suppose it will effect the running. Drain cock offset by ed cloutman, on Flickr
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