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Post by alan2000 on Apr 6, 2008 21:56:54 GMT
First time post here Gents (so be gentle)
I bought my Son a lathe for Christmas, and we both have spent many happy hours learning the ‘art’ We are half way through building our first project (a Stuart V10) and have got to the stage of buying more taps and dies in the various sizes and forms that this hobby requires: It is an expensive business when you are starting from scratch.
Would it be worth while buying a complete set of metric taps and dies and replacing all the BA and ME threaded fixings with metric, what would you recommend?
Alan
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Smifffy
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Post by Smifffy on Apr 6, 2008 22:24:21 GMT
I saw a similar question to this not so long back and the answer was to basically crack on and use metric threads. However, I thought (dunno why?) that coarse metric threads were not ideal - as they may tend to work loose. Certainly looking at ME trheads, they are generally much finer, more in line with Metric fine.
But hey, I'm sure someone way more expert than me (pretty much anyone on here) will soon put me right :-)
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jamespetts
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Post by jamespetts on Apr 6, 2008 22:30:59 GMT
If you are building Stuarts, one difficulty with using metric threads is that all the accessories and spares (valves, gauges, drain cocks, oiler cups, boiler fittings, nuts, etc.) are in BA, so you might find some incompatibility problems.
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Post by eightpot on Apr 6, 2008 23:13:15 GMT
For myself, go for BA and ME. Metric can always be added later if desired. Carbon Steel taps and dies are usually adequate for model engineering purposes. I think that Tracy Tools still do sets of taps and dies at reasonable prices.
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Post by alanstepney on Apr 7, 2008 1:50:21 GMT
I would stick with BA and ME, as others have said.
However, you dont need to spend a fortune on them. As I am sure you will find, when first starting model engineering, there is more than enough to spend money on!
Look round all your local car boot sales and pick up all the taps, dies, (and drills etc) that you can. Plus local auctions and anywhere else that you may find a bargain. Even when you have sets, some spares are always useful.
Among the regular suppliers, Tracy Tools are usually cheaper than many others.
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Post by Jo on Apr 7, 2008 6:38:21 GMT
I agree: Stick with BA and ME.
Standard metric sizes do not go down as small as we require and these smaller sizes are much more expensive that BA's to purchase. Model Engineering threads are there for a specific purpose, in my experience mainly boiler fittings and associated plumbing: were the fine threads apart from anything else help line every thing up.
I would suggest that is is worth both yourself and your son joining a local model engineering society... normally Model engineers fall over backwards to help youngsters onto the path to ruin by providing a odd tool to get them started.
Don't forget you will also need some drills to go with your taps: For this I would go with the metric. I recall that either Chronos or Tracys do a very reasonable 1.0 to 5.9mm set, which you will need with your taps.
Jo
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paul
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Post by paul on Apr 7, 2008 7:47:27 GMT
I bought my Son a lathe for Christmas, and we both have spent many happy hours learning the ‘art’ We... I like your style ;D As has been said, metric in fine are very expensive and the standard coarse threads above M3 aren't brilliant IMHO (they're ok for bolting big lumps of wood together though ) I wish I'd bough ME at the outset.
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brozier
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Post by brozier on Apr 7, 2008 7:53:51 GMT
Alan,
I agree buying taps and dies new is an expensive business.
I've managed to pick up enough taps to have spares by buying up "job lots" on ebay. You'll find there's a few that you use a lot - for me it's 8BA so it was worth buying HSS new. But theres a lot that you'll only use once or twice where a second hand one will do.
I would say go for HSS rather than carbon steel they are much more forgiving. Having a tapping stand (or using the drill press) will also cut down on expensive mistakes.
Cheers Bryan
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Post by Tel on Apr 7, 2008 8:23:01 GMT
Sorry Bryan, but I can't agree - hss taps will take much rougher treatment, but the carbon steel, used properly, cut a much nicer thread.
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Post by ron on Apr 7, 2008 9:02:54 GMT
Hi Alan Welcome to the forum, I suppose it all depends on what a person counts as expensive but a set of BA or ME carbon steel taps from the likes of RDG is less than £45, to my thinking in the grand scheme of tooling costs for model engineering it's not a huge outlay. I certainly wouldn't spend the money on HSS taps and dies in this country for general model engineering, I don't think the extra cost [more than 3X carbon steel] is worth it. Ron
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cotswold
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Post by cotswold on Apr 7, 2008 9:31:48 GMT
I'm happy more than happy to support the consensus in favour of BA and ME. If and when you get into the land of rivet counting fine scale, hexagon sizes of screw heads and nuts will start to be a factor to consider. The fact that the BA sizes are in an (approximate) 10% diminishing series will make it easier to make sure things 'look right'.
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Smifffy
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Post by Smifffy on Apr 7, 2008 10:33:59 GMT
One mistake with a Carbon Steel tap (normally the last thread cut) and you'll wish you had bought the more expensive HSS!
If bought as and when required it's not too painful. I'm slowly but surely moving over to HSS for all of mine.
Smifffy
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on Apr 7, 2008 10:36:04 GMT
It depends on what models you are going to be involved in ,English - BA , American -UNF?UNC and continental - Metric . You can use any thread on any model , but one has to consider what he/she is comfortable with .The cost in the scheme of thing is more or less the same .
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Post by Tel on Apr 7, 2008 10:48:20 GMT
Shawki makes a good point, and if you are in it for the long haul (and most of us are) that first thread selection will only be the first of many. Not only will the type and style of your models vary, but you will find yourself doing other things as well.
In short, get the taps and dies you need for the model you are working on NOW, and add to the selection as you go along
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Post by freddo on Apr 7, 2008 13:25:19 GMT
It sort of goes against the grain with me to agree with an ugly 'boriginal like Tel, but for once, he seems to state wisdom.
Buy the tool for the job as and when you need it - that way the expense is spread and you always have the tool for the next time.
Buying a set of anything is effing nonsense - like a set of number drills where you only use 3 in your lifetime.
Freddo
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steam4ian
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Post by steam4ian on Apr 7, 2008 14:22:19 GMT
G'day Freddo
True, buying a set leaves you with a lot of unused drills etc. But some times that is the only way to get something. Where can I buy one only number 26 twist drill in Oz? Or for that matter, one only 2.8mm drill bit
I am sticking to metric, at least I can get taps from Minitech and others. For those in the UK and US the position may be much better.
IMHO the difficulty getting some of the specialist stuff is one of the biggest disincentives the hobby faces.
Regards, Ian
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Post by havoc on Apr 7, 2008 17:37:09 GMT
I agree in principle on "buy whenever you need" idea. On the other hand I think you got to consider standardising on a single system. I don't see the use of having 3 taps that make threads that are indistiguishable with the naked eye but are not compatible either.
I use metric exclusively. It is the only system available here be it model shop or professional tool shop.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2008 18:16:41 GMT
One mistake with a Carbon Steel tap (normally the last thread cut) and you'll wish you had bought the more expensive HSS! If bought as and when required it's not too painful. I'm slowly but surely moving over to HSS for all of mine. Smifffy I agree with Smiffy on this one. Don't bother even looking at Carbon Steel Taps, go for the HSS. They might cost twice as much - but you'll buy half as many , so they'll cost you the same in the end. Plus you won't have to spend as much time re-making parts that have broken taps in them.
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PH
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Post by PH on Apr 7, 2008 20:03:11 GMT
As far as I'm concerned, it's metric only - I refuse to have anything imperial in the workshop. There seem to be so many 'nearly-but-not-quite-identical' imperial threads that I'm just not interested in working it all out. As Havoc says, you can buy metric anywhere - taps, dies and fasteners.
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Post by Tel on Apr 7, 2008 20:17:35 GMT
As far as I'm concerned, it's metric only - I refuse to have anything imperial in the workshop. There seem to be so many 'nearly-but-not-quite-identical' imperial threads that I'm just not interested in working it all out. As Havoc says, you can buy metric anywhere - taps, dies and fasteners. ....... until somebody brings in their old left handed, imperial, clockwork flooglehorn for repair - then your metric stuff will be about as useful as a paper ashtray. Ian, any decent Industrial supplier will sell you single drills - my bloke in Bathurst (and Bathurst is the worst place in the world to try & buy stuff) only carries metric in the 0.1 steps, but for drills, you can get a close enough approximation with them. (I love you too Freddo )
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