stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 10, 2019 21:15:54 GMT
Roger,
There seem to be a lot of opinions about filing buttons. I make mine from silver steel, and harden them right out. I don't worry about them going black. However, the technique that I was taught was that the buttons must be free to rotate. (Like a filing rest). They must not be bolted up tight - that's a sure recipe to ruin your files with hardened buttons, and if the buttons are soft you'll just file the buttons.
In use, you file so that the files runs along the curved surface of the buttons, and they rotate when you get down to the finished size.
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Post by Roger on Feb 10, 2019 22:07:15 GMT
Hi Steve, Indeed, there are two ways to use filing buttons. I personally don't think that you'll blunt a file if you're gentle as you approach touchdown with the button, it's just skates off at a tangent. I realised that I haven't taken a shot of the completed coupling. It looks like the bottom link is bent, but it's just the angle it's laying. 20190210_210849 by Anne Froud, on Flickr This is the bunker base. The big hole isn't big enough for the new bush that I've added to the cab stretcher to guide the hand brake rod. The vee in the backing material is to allow me to clock around the inside. 20190210_160210 by Anne Froud, on Flickr Here the back is getting clocked up, and then the hole which positions the spindle directly over it. That's not where it's defined in the CAM module, and I don't really want to change that. The simple solution it to output a drill hole at this point and then tell the DRO that this clocked position is that coordinate. I've had to raise the base on some parallels so that I can reach. That's because I've gone for a large neck extension on the mill. 20190210_160711 by Anne Froud, on Flickr Although this really only needs to be a clearance, I'd prefer it to be a location too. 20190210_163838 by Anne Froud, on Flickr I thought I'd move on and take a look at what needs to be cut on the inside edges of the Side Tanks. In fitting the support pads, I discovered that I'd made the M2 clearance holes 1.6mm on the brackets, so here they're getting opened out. I'm getting close to the position and then dropping a 1.6mm drill right up to the chuck to nudge the frame into the right position. No need to clamp anything down. 20190210_211513 by Anne Froud, on Flickr So here are the front and back Side Tank support pads in place. There's a further piece of packing that simulates the wood or Cork packing that's used on the full size tanks. I've also taken another look at the plate I got for the cab base. It was supposed to be 1/4" plate, but it turned out to be 6mm and not that flat either. I've just asked for a quote on that and a couple of other lengths of Mild Steel Rod that I'm running low on. If you recall, I pulled all the stock out and made a list, so that made it a lot easier to figure out what I haven't got much of. Ideally I'd like to get on the with cab before going much further on the side tanks since they are going to butt up against the front of it. Still, the tanks will need a clearance over the boiler, so it doesn't have to be that precise. There are sheet metal infills to cover the gaps. 20190210_214028 by Anne Froud, on Flickr
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Post by 92220 on Feb 11, 2019 11:12:45 GMT
Hi Roger.
Super job, that coupling and the drain cock linkages! I see you clocked up your bunker base, to do some milling. I have a little trick that works every time for me, to get something parallel to the table. My mill table tee slots are exactly 0.5" wide. One of my parallels is able to JUST hand press into the slot and I use that to set up any work I want parallel to the table, or square to it. The face of the parallel is only about 0.0005" out over the 6" length of the parallel when clocked, which is way more than accurate enough for my use. I also have 1/2" silversteel buttons fitted in accurately machined 0.500" grooves in the base of my machine vice, to fit in the table slots too. Almost the only clocking up I do now is setting the rotary table under the quill, and for that I use a Machine-DRO centre finding clock which works down to 0.0005" T.I.R.
Bob.
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Post by delaplume on Feb 11, 2019 11:41:03 GMT
HI Roger,
Hat's off to you old friend, that's really looking the part now..........Remember your reservations way back before you actually started ??....all gone now, eh ??..........
Might I tentatively offer a design modification ??................Personally I use only a solid bar coupler at the rear for club / passenger running...This is a recognised and in some places mandatory requirement, and is not open to debate........
The other ideas of adding an adaptor etc over the screw coupler whilst technically fine might be questioned by some club officials... folk being how they are when presented with a slight unknown...
But that's just me----I'm sure that what ever you choose it'll work ok..
Promise me that you'll bring 1501 with you when you next visit these hallowed lands ??
Alan.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Feb 11, 2019 11:56:48 GMT
I don't know how they feel when presented with Locomotion, which to be fair does have a solid coupling at the back of the tender, but its bolted to a wooden stretcher. Does this rule only apply when hauling more than just the driver? If so, then it ain't going to be a problem. I'd probably better take the tender with me next time I go to the club, and see what they say.
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Post by Roger on Feb 11, 2019 12:12:18 GMT
Hi Roger. Super job, that coupling and the drain cock linkages! I see you clocked up your bunker base, to do some milling. I have a little trick that works every time for me, to get something parallel to the table. My mill table tee slots are exactly 0.5" wide. One of my parallels is able to JUST hand press into the slot and I use that to set up any work I want parallel to the table, or square to it. The face of the parallel is only about 0.0005" out over the 6" length of the parallel when clocked, which is way more than accurate enough for my use. I also have 1/2" silversteel buttons fitted in accurately machined 0.500" grooves in the base of my machine vice, to fit in the table slots too. Almost the only clocking up I do now is setting the rotary table under the quill, and for that I use a Machine-DRO centre finding clock which works down to 0.0005" T.I.R. Bob. Hi Bob, I'm pleased that you like the coupling, it was quite a lot of work. I do sometimes use the back of the machine bed with a parallel pressed against it, and that's good enough for most things. I'm always a little suspicious about this sort of method when it involves large contact areas and I want to get it really close. That's why my vice is located against two circular ground locations that go into hardened jog bushes on the table, a similar setup to yours. I do use that a lot. It sounds like your arrangement is plenty good enough for just about all of the jobs though. I'm not sure how true my Tee slots are to the X-axis though, I'd have to measure them. What might be useful though would be to make a long ground parallel that would bridge between the two ground locations I use for the vice. I could imagine using that quite a lot. In reality, clocking up takes very little time with CNC if you have a selection of programs like I do for traversing a range of distances back and forth. Most of the pain in clocking by hand is winding the table over a decent distance.
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Post by Roger on Feb 11, 2019 12:18:06 GMT
HI Roger, Hat's off to you old friend, that's really looking the part now..........Remember your reservations way back before you actually started ??....all gone now, eh ??.......... Might I tentatively offer a design modification ??................Personally I use only a solid bar coupler at the rear for club / passenger running...This is a recognised and in some places mandatory requirement, and is not open to debate........ The other ideas of adding an adaptor etc over the screw coupler whilst technically fine might be questioned by some club officials... folk being how they are when presented with a slight unknown... But that's just me----I'm sure that what ever you choose it'll work ok.. Promise me that you'll bring 1501 with you when you next visit these hallowed lands ?? Alan. Hi Alan, It's certainly nothing like the build I intended, that's for sure. It's all good though, and a lot more challenging. What I might do is make a solid bar coupling that comes up from under the buffer beam, just clear of the draw hook. That can be attached quickly with a couple of thumb screws to the underside of the massive cab stretcher. That way I wouldn't have to take off the drawhook and coupling. I'm not sure at what state of build 1501 will be in when I see you next. I'm not in a hurry to put it all together until it's almost finished because it's so much easier to keep it with the bare minimum of parts there for whatever I'm making next. Although it's nice to see something coming together, all finish painted, it's hard not to scratch or damage things while you're still drilling holes and modifying things.
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Post by delaplume on Feb 11, 2019 17:25:38 GMT
Quote}-- "What I might do is make a solid bar coupling that comes up from under the buffer beam, just clear of the draw hook. That can be attached quickly with a couple of thumb screws to the underside of the massive cab stretcher. That way I wouldn't have to take off the drawhook and coupling"
Yes, that would do it. Nice and simple to use on the day and yet keeping the prototype look at the same time...
I'm busy making up a simple dog drive adaptor for the Chester lathe........They only show a large faceplate in the parts itinery and I need to re-profile those Simplex wheels I featured recently....
Hopefully you and Julian can be here at the same time ??
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Post by Roger on Feb 11, 2019 17:49:36 GMT
Quote}-- "What I might do is make a solid bar coupling that comes up from under the buffer beam, just clear of the draw hook. That can be attached quickly with a couple of thumb screws to the underside of the massive cab stretcher. That way I wouldn't have to take off the drawhook and coupling" Yes, that would do it. Nice and simple to use on the day and yet keeping the prototype look at the same time... I'm busy making up a simple dog drive adaptor for the Chester lathe........They only show a large faceplate in the parts itinery and I need to re-profile those Simplex wheels I featured recently.... Hopefully you and Julian can be here at the same time ?? Ok, I'll model something up along those lines, it's simple enough. I take it that the height of the middle of the solid coupling should be at the same height as the existing draw hook? What pin diameter is usually used? Does anyone have any dimensions of a typical arrangement? I can see me having a wide variety of connection regimes and safety chains/wires to suit all occasions if I'm out ant about! Hopefully we can all get together in the summer, that would be most pleasant.
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Post by andyhigham on Feb 11, 2019 17:51:04 GMT
If you use the "under the buffer from the cab stretcher" coupling as the main coupling, you could use the "prototype" coupling hook to attach a safety chain
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jem
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Post by jem on Feb 11, 2019 18:08:59 GMT
I made a tee square to go across my mill, its made from 30 X 30 mm square steel with a 30 X10mm part that goes along the mill, this makes it very easy to set up the vice etc. the 30 X 30mm part is drilled over the tee slots such that I can bolt it to the table if needs be.
Best wishes
Jem
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don9f
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Post by don9f on Feb 11, 2019 21:57:51 GMT
Hi Roger, in theory the drawgear of 5 inch gauge locos and other vehicles should all be at a similar height, but in practice this is not necessarily so. You may want to design your “solid” drawbar to be somewhat articulated both horizontally and vertically so that it can accommodate variations in alignment....of course something that a 3 link or a screw coupling is particularly good at!
On our little railway our passenger trucks all use clevis type drawgear and to accommodate any slight vertical misalignment with locos that also have a clevis, we have an assortment of draw bars that are either flat, or offset by varying amounts to accommodate any height differences. The pins that couple vehicles together are 1/4 inch dia. and these pins are retained in the clevis by an “R” clip.
Some locos use an adapter over the drawhook that is then pinned to the clevis on the leading truck, some use a piece of commercial chain between their loco’s clevis and the leading truck....this latter arrangement relies on the buffers of course during any overrun.
We don’t pull heavy loads on our “home” track but like others, we visit other tracks and you never know what might be expected of you, so drawgear has to be up to the job! I can’t imagine for a minute that your drawhook would ever fail in service but as others have suggested, sometimes you come up against the proverbial red tape!
Cheers don
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JonL
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Post by JonL on Feb 11, 2019 22:20:09 GMT
Are solid drawbars just to avoid crush injuries between the trucks?
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don9f
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Post by don9f on Feb 11, 2019 22:38:54 GMT
Good question....I don’t know but it makes good sense!
Don
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Post by Roger on Feb 11, 2019 23:15:49 GMT
Are solid drawbars just to avoid crush injuries between the trucks? My guess is that it's because chains could potentially come off the hooks or break if they're of cheap construction. We use loose links just hooked over the locomotive's hook and we've never had one come off. To be honest, I think it's unnecessary and detracts from the look of the setup. A safety wire or chain in addition to a well made scale coupling ought to be acceptable in my opinion.
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Post by Roger on Feb 11, 2019 23:19:15 GMT
Hi Roger, in theory the drawgear of 5 inch gauge locos and other vehicles should all be at a similar height, but in practice this is not necessarily so. You may want to design your “solid” drawbar to be somewhat articulated both horizontally and vertically so that it can accommodate variations in alignment....of course something that a 3 link or a screw coupling is particularly good at! On our little railway our passenger trucks all use clevis type drawgear and to accommodate any slight vertical misalignment with locos that also have a clevis, we have an assortment of draw bars that are either flat, or offset by varying amounts to accommodate any height differences. The pins that couple vehicles together are 1/4 inch dia. and these pins are retained in the clevis by an “R” clip. Some locos use an adapter over the drawhook that is then pinned to the clevis on the leading truck, some use a piece of commercial chain between their loco’s clevis and the leading truck....this latter arrangement relies on the buffers of course during any overrun. We don’t pull heavy loads on our “home” track but like others, we visit other tracks and you never know what might be expected of you, so drawgear has to be up to the job! I can’t imagine for a minute that your drawhook would ever fail in service but as others have suggested, sometimes you come up against the proverbial red tape! Cheers don Hi Don, Maybe I should be making one with an adjustable height, even if that's just by adding spacers since that might not be acceptable either. I like that adaptor over the draw hook, that's something I want to make too. Is the coupling usually a slot which accepts a tongue with a 1/4" hole in it attached to the riding truck?
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don9f
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Post by don9f on Feb 11, 2019 23:35:45 GMT
Yes I’ll take some pics tomorrow of various bits I’ve got here.
Cheers Don
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Feb 12, 2019 1:29:22 GMT
Hi Roger, in theory the drawgear of 5 inch gauge locos and other vehicles should all be at a similar height, but in practice this is not necessarily so. You may want to design your “solid” drawbar to be somewhat articulated both horizontally and vertically so that it can accommodate variations in alignment....of course something that a 3 link or a screw coupling is particularly good at! On our little railway our passenger trucks all use clevis type drawgear and to accommodate any slight vertical misalignment with locos that also have a clevis, we have an assortment of draw bars that are either flat, or offset by varying amounts to accommodate any height differences. The pins that couple vehicles together are 1/4 inch dia. and these pins are retained in the clevis by an “R” clip. Some locos use an adapter over the drawhook that is then pinned to the clevis on the leading truck, some use a piece of commercial chain between their loco’s clevis and the leading truck....this latter arrangement relies on the buffers of course during any overrun. We don’t pull heavy loads on our “home” track but like others, we visit other tracks and you never know what might be expected of you, so drawgear has to be up to the job! I can’t imagine for a minute that your drawhook would ever fail in service but as others have suggested, sometimes you come up against the proverbial red tape! Cheers don Hi Roger That's good advice from Don. I think if you have this proposed solid drawbar of yours coming 'up from under' there could be a risk of damaging your beautiful scale screwlink as the solid bar articulates, which would be a shame. Personally, my practice has been to make an 'alternative coupling' which fits into the socket vacated by the scale coupling, secured behind with the usual (pinned) big nut and spring. Relieve the back of the body of the alternative coupling just where it enters the buffer beam socket, to the same size & shape of the scale coupling, so if any paint is removed in use, it will not be noticed. The scale coupling lives in my toolbox and is simple to replace if needed for a static display- which is very seldom. HTH Gary
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don9f
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Post by don9f on Feb 12, 2019 17:52:51 GMT
Hi Roger, firstly I apologise for the crappy photos....I’ve just taken them quickly in less than ideal conditions! When I used to run my 9F before, the tender was fitted with the drawhook shown in this first photo. ![](https://i.imgur.com/3MDFbv9.jpg) I cannot remember where it came from but it was probably Blackgates. You can see it is vaguely similar to yours and the “dummy” screw coupling fitted to it via a pin through the elongated hole (not how yours is assembled). The shank of the drawbar hook is not particularly robust and just a 2BA nut, washer, spring etc. nut held it in place. The articulated item also shown fitted over the hook and was the way it was normally coupled to a train, with a 1/4 inch clevis pin. We used to visit many different tracks in the North of England, sometimes working very hard, hauling heavy trains. I remember once as a special load, hauling 26 adults on many trucks at the Urmston track, near Manchester....never had any problems with coupling failure! I don’t recall even ever using a secondary safety chain either because I’ve only just made provision for such a thing recently! This next drawbar hook I think is from Doug Hewson’s range, but many years ago. This one has what is known as a “Gedge” slot and in full size, one small area of either the upper shackle on a screw coupling, or one of the links on a 3 link type, would be flattened a bit, so it can be manouvered into place through the Gedge slot. This type of hook is inherently weaker than hooks with a hole through and definitely shouldn’t be used for passenger hauling. I am going to use it on the front of my “Jinty” just for show. ![](https://i.imgur.com/8f2UVzs.jpg) My 9F tender has a new drawhook now (shown in my own thread) but I shall still fit the modified screw coupling just for show. I have made new upper links to look more like the real thing. ![](https://i.imgur.com/9K6otur.jpg) You’ve seen this next item before....it still hasn’t been cut to length and drilled etc. but this will fit over the new tender hook, similarly to how I’ve shown it on the old hook. Obviously once it’s fitted over the hook and pinned to a truck, it can’t come off. ![](https://i.imgur.com/F7YvROD.jpg) Now onto my Class 25....this has exactly the same clevis coupling that is fitted to our present day trucks, but as you can see, I have to use a cranked drawbar as Maxitrak haven’t quite got the buffer height/drawgear height right and it’s a bit too high. It’s no problem though and also shown is the clevis pin, with integral spring clip to ensure it stays in place. Again, the pin is 1/4 inch dia. The clevis is secured via an M6 caphead screw, spring etc. (my own modification to the undesirable rigid setup it had before). ![](https://i.imgur.com/o3xdHxz.jpg) ![](https://i.imgur.com/mpIa0Gs.jpg) Hope this all gives you a few ideas! Cheers Don
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Post by Roger on Feb 12, 2019 18:42:31 GMT
That's really useful Don, many thanks for taking the time to show those. I have to say I'm most impressed with the captive piece that fits over the drawhook, it's hard to see how anyone could complain about that as a solution, unless they don't like the way the drawhook is attached to the buffer.
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