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Post by Roger on Nov 22, 2019 19:49:39 GMT
Hi Roger, Much of the original cab flooring was lost during its final days at Keresley colliery and its early restoration time at the SVR. The little we had left was in poor condition but the original flooring platework was the full diamond pattern. It was replaced with the more modern style of chequer plate due to the availability of this at the time. Probably a bit safer too. Brian. Thanks for confirming that Brian. I'm going to model it as it is now, I prefer the look of the newer plate.
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Post by delaplume on Nov 22, 2019 20:51:31 GMT
Hi Roger, Recently I found this which shows the safety valve bonnet as all black in 2014 -------- www.docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco01501.htmOne of the photos shows}---"1501 after restoration in 2012 and wearing the early BR lined black scheme" I hope this is of help ? Mu apologies if you've already come across this before..
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 22, 2019 21:24:48 GMT
That was an interesting point raised in the article. The 15xx had limited route availability because it was was too heavy and as we all know stability was rather wayward at any kind of speed
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Post by delaplume on Nov 22, 2019 21:44:37 GMT
It's a "Tail Wagger"..... and then some !!
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 22, 2019 21:49:27 GMT
The videos I have seen it also pitches a lot too. Pitch and yaw together, I bet the crew don't eat breakfast for fear of losing it
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Post by Roger on Nov 22, 2019 22:11:05 GMT
Hi Roger, Recently I found this which shows the safety valve bonnet as all black in 2014 -------- www.docbrown.info/docspics/ArchiveSteam/loco01501.htmOne of the photos shows}---"1501 after restoration in 2012 and wearing the early BR lined black scheme" I hope this is of help ? Mu apologies if you've already come across this before.. Thanks for those Alan, I think I've seen some of those before, but it proves the point that it's been seen in both liveries.
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Post by Roger on Nov 22, 2019 22:17:37 GMT
The videos I have seen it also pitches a lot too. Pitch and yaw together, I bet the crew don't eat breakfast for fear of losing it It certainly does appear to wallow drunkenly. I'm not sure what the point was about route limitations was supposed to highlight though, since it was only designed for one very specific shunting function. It's not altogether surprising that it pitches and bounds around, it's heavy and on a short wheelbase. It just shows the fundamental problems of no proper damping or torsion bars to control the dynamics of Steam Locomotives. A bigger surprise to me is that you could ever get to 100 MPH on a locomotive without damping. I imagine some of the rides could be a bit scary.
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 22, 2019 22:43:08 GMT
I suppose no matter how uncomfortable the ride is, the loco is always constrained by the rails. Now exceeding 120mph on a rigid framed motorbike on a rough ww2 airfield does induce minor anus twitching
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,900
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 22, 2019 23:23:47 GMT
I have vivid memories of the modern chequer plate as fitted to class 37 and 47 diesel locos. First time I encountered a 47, Senior Rhymney Driver Jeff Jones, said "Watch out when you shut the door" when I had handed him the token in the cab, then slammed the cab door shut which was flush with that top cab step with that modern chequered plate, pushing my boots off the step and I went bump bump down hitting every lower step till I landed in a heap on the ballast. (The 37s had recessed cab doors).
Never went into the engine room of a 47, but often did on a 37, which had that same modern chequer plate. We had to wear an industrial grade of steel toe capped boots that didn't dissolve the soles with diesel fuel.
For me, that modern type of chequer plate as now fitted to 1501 is inextricably linked in my memory with diesel locos, and one particular first encounter with a 47.
So, if the GWR and BR (WR) used the diamond pattern chequer plate on the 15XX class, as Baldric notes, and Roger's work drawings show, then diamond pattern chequer plate it should be. Though personally, I would go for straight planks of wood with no chequer plate. I cannot imagine the chequer plate got retained when the wooden cab floor was replaced, as having a wooden planked floor was GWR tradition. Castles, Kings, down to the 57XX had no chequer plate on the cab floor on top of the wooden planking.
I wouldn't want diesel era chequer plate on a steam locomotive.
Cheers,
Julian
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Nov 22, 2019 23:41:47 GMT
The videos I have seen it also pitches a lot too. Pitch and yaw together, I bet the crew don't eat breakfast for fear of losing it It certainly does appear to wallow drunkenly. I'm not sure what the point was about route limitations was supposed to highlight though, since it was only designed for one very specific shunting function. It's not altogether surprising that it pitches and bounds around, it's heavy and on a short wheelbase. It just shows the fundamental problems of no proper damping or torsion bars to control the dynamics of Steam Locomotives. A bigger surprise to me is that you could ever get to 100 MPH on a locomotive without damping. I imagine some of the rides could be a bit scary. Well, yes, ‘no proper damping’ as we understand it, after 70 years or more of hydraulic dampers on motor vehicles. But there is significant frictional damping from multiple leaf springs, and railway vehicles had these in spades. On road vehicles there were friction dampers and it was really only the advent of very low friction coil springs that required something better. When coil springs found their way onto rails, telescopic dampers from road practice soon followed. Grossly oversimplified, but I believe the usual response to complaints about lively riding on steam locos was to reduce axlebox clearances and stiffen up the springs. I don’t recall reading accounts of locos bouncing off the track; I imagine that even if self-preservation didn’t force a speed reduction, difficulty in firing the beast would have done so quite quickly... Gary
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on Nov 23, 2019 1:46:14 GMT
This is why she has one of the best boilers as it is said that bouncing along the track produces more steam. EMPTY STOCK tells the tail very nicely if you ever have the pleasure of going behind 1501 on a late running last train of an event when they will hand her back in the morning!!! How would you drive her? Leading coach of course. "Nothing to see here!" as they open the smokebox.
David getting a boiler ready for testing and sore fingers from 4 BA bolts and things.
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Post by Roger on Nov 23, 2019 8:02:15 GMT
It certainly does appear to wallow drunkenly. I'm not sure what the point was about route limitations was supposed to highlight though, since it was only designed for one very specific shunting function. It's not altogether surprising that it pitches and bounds around, it's heavy and on a short wheelbase. It just shows the fundamental problems of no proper damping or torsion bars to control the dynamics of Steam Locomotives. A bigger surprise to me is that you could ever get to 100 MPH on a locomotive without damping. I imagine some of the rides could be a bit scary. Well, yes, ‘no proper damping’ as we understand it, after 70 years or more of hydraulic dampers on motor vehicles. But there is significant frictional damping from multiple leaf springs, and railway vehicles had these in spades. On road vehicles there were friction dampers and it was really only the advent of very low friction coil springs that required something better. When coil springs found their way onto rails, telescopic dampers from road practice soon followed. Grossly oversimplified, but I believe the usual response to complaints about lively riding on steam locos was to reduce axlebox clearances and stiffen up the springs. I don’t recall reading accounts of locos bouncing off the track; I imagine that even if self-preservation didn’t force a speed reduction, difficulty in firing the beast would have done so quite quickly... Gary Hi Gary, Yes, there certainly is frictional damping on the leaf springs, but it's not controlled in any way, and isn't proportional to velocity like a hydraulic type. That's why they were abandoned early in the development of cars and motorbikes.
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Post by Roger on Nov 23, 2019 8:06:13 GMT
I have vivid memories of the modern chequer plate as fitted to class 37 and 47 diesel locos. First time I encountered a 47, Senior Rhymney Driver Jeff Jones, said "Watch out when you shut the door" when I had handed him the token in the cab, then slammed the cab door shut which was flush with that top cab step with that modern chequered plate, pushing my boots off the step and I went bump bump down hitting every lower step till I landed in a heap on the ballast. (The 37s had recessed cab doors). Never went into the engine room of a 47, but often did on a 37, which had that same modern chequer plate. We had to wear an industrial grade of steel toe capped boots that didn't dissolve the soles with diesel fuel. For me, that modern type of chequer plate as now fitted to 1501 is inextricably linked in my memory with diesel locos, and one particular first encounter with a 47. So, if the GWR and BR (WR) used the diamond pattern chequer plate on the 15XX class, as Baldric notes, and Roger's work drawings show, then diamond pattern chequer plate it should be. Though personally, I would go for straight planks of wood with no chequer plate. I cannot imagine the chequer plate got retained when the wooden cab floor was replaced, as having a wooden planked floor was GWR tradition. Castles, Kings, down to the 57XX had no chequer plate on the cab floor on top of the wooden planking. I wouldn't want diesel era chequer plate on a steam locomotive. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, 1501 never had a wooden floor, the chequer plate isn't fitted on top of it, it's an original feature attached directly to the under frames. In the end it's all down to personal choice, I like the way 1501 is now, it would jar every time I looked at it to see it looking wrong compared to how it is today because I'm so familiar with it. You also have to remember that this is also a 'Diesel era' locomotive, she shared the tracks with Diesels, so this is not as out of keeping as you might imagine.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Nov 23, 2019 16:07:23 GMT
I have vivid memories of the modern chequer plate as fitted to class 37 and 47 diesel locos. First time I encountered a 47, Senior Rhymney Driver Jeff Jones, said "Watch out when you shut the door" when I had handed him the token in the cab, then slammed the cab door shut which was flush with that top cab step with that modern chequered plate, pushing my boots off the step and I went bump bump down hitting every lower step till I landed in a heap on the ballast. (The 37s had recessed cab doors). Never went into the engine room of a 47, but often did on a 37, which had that same modern chequer plate. We had to wear an industrial grade of steel toe capped boots that didn't dissolve the soles with diesel fuel. For me, that modern type of chequer plate as now fitted to 1501 is inextricably linked in my memory with diesel locos, and one particular first encounter with a 47. So, if the GWR and BR (WR) used the diamond pattern chequer plate on the 15XX class, as Baldric notes, and Roger's work drawings show, then diamond pattern chequer plate it should be. Though personally, I would go for straight planks of wood with no chequer plate. I cannot imagine the chequer plate got retained when the wooden cab floor was replaced, as having a wooden planked floor was GWR tradition. Castles, Kings, down to the 57XX had no chequer plate on the cab floor on top of the wooden planking. I wouldn't want diesel era chequer plate on a steam locomotive. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, 1501 never had a wooden floor, the chequer plate isn't fitted on top of it, it's an original feature attached directly to the under frames. In the end it's all down to personal choice, I like the way 1501 is now, it would jar every time I looked at it to see it looking wrong compared to how it is today because I'm so familiar with it. You also have to remember that this is also a 'Diesel era' locomotive, she shared the tracks with Diesels, so this is not as out of keeping as you might imagine. FWIW, the cab floor on my Paddington will be a plain, flat, painted steel plate. I have the drawings (courtesy Roger's files, many thanks) and they clearly show the floor as part chequer plate and part wood ( pace Julian) in all manner of humps and bumps. But this is one area where form has to give way to function. In a working miniature loco there is just too much coal, paraffin, water, ash dust and lord knows what else spilling around, so anything else would be a nightmare to sweep clean. But Roger, your 1501 will be something special, so I don't blame you for giving extra attention to the cab floor. Best have a powerful vac on standby when you run it though Best wishes Gary
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Post by Roger on Nov 23, 2019 16:10:10 GMT
These are some of the pieces that make up the LH and RH plinth on the Cab floor. The top three parts are scrap, I hadn't selected the right cutter diameter in the progam.... doh! 20191123_094221 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Just in case anyone was thinking that CNC removes the need for bench work! 20191123_095916 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I'm going to machine a fixture to hold these parts in place either for tacking with the TIG welder or directly Silver Soldering. 20191123_155649 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr These are the parts for the RH plinth. 20191123_114619 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr I'm still experimenting with the best way to machine the chequer plate. This is a 2mm ball nosed cutter at a 0.1mm step over leaving 50 microns stock for cleaning up. 20191123_142506 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Alhtough it's not as well defined as the sample on the left, it's still not bad and it would take an awful lot less time if I could do it with this cutter instead of finishing it with the 1mm ball nose. 20191123_153650 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr So I've just reduced the step over to 75 microns and the stock to zero to see if this can give an acceptable result in one pass.
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Post by Roger on Nov 23, 2019 16:12:24 GMT
Hi Julian, 1501 never had a wooden floor, the chequer plate isn't fitted on top of it, it's an original feature attached directly to the under frames. In the end it's all down to personal choice, I like the way 1501 is now, it would jar every time I looked at it to see it looking wrong compared to how it is today because I'm so familiar with it. You also have to remember that this is also a 'Diesel era' locomotive, she shared the tracks with Diesels, so this is not as out of keeping as you might imagine. FWIW, the cab floor on my Paddington will be a plain, flat, painted steel plate. I have the drawings (courtesy Roger's files, many thanks) and they clearly show the floor as part chequer plate and part wood ( pace Julian) in all manner of humps and bumps. But this is one area where form has to give way to function. In a working miniature loco there is just too much coal, paraffin, water, ash dust and lord knows what else spilling around, so anything else would be a nightmare to sweep clean. But Roger, your 1501 will be something special, so I don't blame you for giving extra attention to the cab floor. Best have a powerful vac on standby when you run it though Best wishes Gary Hi Gary, That's a very good point, and perhaps it's not worth trying to get exquisite detail on the chequer plate as long as it's good enough.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,900
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Post by jma1009 on Nov 23, 2019 20:41:28 GMT
Roger has kindly sent me the relevant works drawing of the 15XX cab floor, and I now understand large sections of the cab floor are not wooden planks with chequer plate on top, but specific welded up boxes with chequer plate on the top.
Thanks, Roger!
Cheers, Julian
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Post by chris vine on Nov 23, 2019 20:53:42 GMT
Hi Roger,
Even if the pattern in the chequer plate gets obscured by muck, you will know it is there! Just like all the other bits of our models which are hidden away...
Chris.
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 23, 2019 21:06:30 GMT
It just needs treating with "gun blue" now
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Post by Roger on Nov 24, 2019 15:47:19 GMT
In the end I wasn't happy with the definition of the bumps, so I ran a pass with a 1mm Ball nosed cutter with 50 micron step over and it's much improved. I can run this pretty quickly, say 200mm/min as long as there's only 20microns or so to clean up after the first cut. Normally I'd leave at least 0.2mm for a finishing pass, but that's going to impact too much on the feedrate I can use. 20191124_084641 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr Anyway, here's the first taste of how it will look on the locomotive. I still have to machine the base plate, that's 3D printed at the moment. However, I don't want to do that until I'm more certain that I've got all of the holes I need cut into it. There's no point keeping on setting it up to add a hole here and there. 20191124_153944 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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