any pansy owners out there ???????

[terry1956]

hi are there any pansy owners out there who can put some light on a few questions for me. I was able to purchase a build pansy at a local auction. its made to a very good standard, but unused for some time. The loco is fitted with a hand pump in the left hand water tank ( which may be a bit far if needed on a run) an axle pump and a injector.
so far I have sorted out the hand pump, and fitted a polly safety valve to replace the none working valve ( hope that a better valve will turn up to be fitted in time)
But I am stuck with the axle pump. the pipe work is all under the water tanks and to be honest if I can sort this without removing the tank that would be good. Can anyone please let me know the position of the clack valve for the axle pump, is it under the right hand tank as looking at the loco from the rear.
thanks, michael

[heronsgate]

Sorry to say Michael that although I have a 'Pansy' I can be of little help to you. Although my 'Pansy' does not look a bit like the original design, no side tanks, shorter footplate and no bunker (it does have a tender though) Right from the very beginning of the build it was suggested by several friendly model engineers that I should forget the axle pump due to the problesm associated with any maintenance due to the problems you have described.
I fear you have two options out of this one is to drop the tanks so a good look can be made. Even then with all the motion work around it any work may be difficult. I have managed nearly thirty years of running with just two injectors and a hand pump, your alternative is to abandon the pump and fit another injector. Altogether a nice locomotive to drive, in whatever form, so all the best. Stan

[terry1956]

stan, I do take your point. I think that the pump itself is OK, water moves in the tank when the pump is off and the water just being returned to the tank. I don,t have a great love of injectors and have nearly always been let down at steam tests by an injector playing up, also with the side water tanks I am sure that the water will not take to long before it gets hot and plays up the injector. so it looks like tank off.I am sure there is not much wrong, all motion is just great, steam oil was full of water, but this as been pumped out and new oil in place.
how did you make the safety valve, mine is the long narrow type with a spring at around 1 1/2 inchs which had gone solid with rust.michael

[Deleted]

Hi Michael,

I presume you mean crosshead pump when you say axle pump unless the builder did fit an axle pump instead?

According to the build articles the pump clack is behind the LH tank i.e. the one with the handpump in. The feed from the injector crosses sides under the boiler and the clack for that is behind the RH tank. I did some work on a 94XX class tank which was based on Pansy and the feed arrangements on that were the same.

I had to 'unstick' one of the clacks and it was a nightmare to get at it. I had to do it with the tank still in situ as I didn't want to spoil the superb paint job on the loco. If you have the same problem i.e. a stuck clack, see if you can pour some boiling water on it somehow. That usually frees the sticking ball.

John

[terry1956]

Hi john, its an axle pump fitted.have the tank off.to save the paint I used some masking tape that my other half uses.the tape as a very light glue so will not pull the paint off.i found that the cleck valve was stuck closed. With so much of the metal work off already I think I will removed the second tank to expose more of the boiler. With no paperwork I take it that the boiler tester will want to see the whole boiler.i have no idea why this is needed as if the boiler holds pressure during the test that shows all is ok.however if the pressure drops then I understand that a closer inspection may be needed.michael

[Deleted]

Hi Michael,

You're probably better off with the axle pump although the crosshead pump on the 94XX seems to work ok.

The test will depend on the inspector. Some may even ask for the cladding to be removed which would be a pain. At the least it will require a 2X hydraulic if it has no paperwork as it will be treated as a new boiler.

The 94XX had a proper top feed with the twin GWR safety valves but didn't have the balls installed in the top feed clacks for some reason. I modified it to include the balls and took the ones out of the clacks behind the tanks which is a crap place to put them. You think you would be able to generate enough pressure to blast a stuck ball of it's seat but it doesn't seem to happen!

John

[gwrfan]

Hi Michael,

Here's (hopefully) a picture of my Pansy, some 30 years old now.



She has the handpump in the right-hand tank, and a cross-head pump on the left side. The pipes connect to the same sides and the clacks are between the tanks and the top feed. If I were to rebuild it, I would probably try to reposition the clacks for ease of access. My injector (again 30 years old) is on the right-hand side, and has never let me down. Mind you, I do use the bunker as a water tank, which feeds cold water to the injector, although all tanks are inter-connected.

[terry1956]

Hi John, there is no cladding on the boiler, just the plate work. I think that I will reposition the clack valve for the pump, as you said its a pain to remove the tank to get at one valve. But in what position to fit it is going to take some working out. my understanding is that the valve needs to be upright and near the boiler. as you know there is not a lot of free room to play with. I cannot fit top valves due to the boiler design.
there is no paperwork. but having to remove all the metalwork is a right pain and doing so will show up nothing more then a pressure test will with the metalwork in place.michael

[jma1009]

this is quite an interesting subject legally. i had a huge legal row mid 1990s with a boiler inspector a certain Mr Tony Reen of Yapton West Sussex over a loco he refused to complete for a client under his business 'Steaming For Pleasure' on the basis that under the then recent law he couldnt ensure the boiler complied with EEC rules re 'safe for purpose'.
i would imagine therefore that auction houses specifically have in their terms and conditions that any such pressure vessels are not provided with any compliance with 'fit for purpose' EEC regs, in the absence of proper paperwork? (in the case i dealt with the builder of the boiler had gone bust and Mr Reen said the paperwork for the steel boiler intended for commercial use on a commercial miniature railway was incomplete. as a result Mr Reen wanted to build a completely new boiler for a considerable sum).
Mr Reen subsequently became somewhat notorious for a case involving a fullsize loco where he had failed to spot defects with the boiler he had examined and passed

orr.gov.uk/news-and-media/press-releases/2010/competent-person-failed-to-properly-inspect-railway-locomotive-boiler

the original Pansy design will not pass many club boiler inspectors today, unless perhaps with grandfather rights, due to inadequate staying of the area around the backhead/inner firebox in the vicinity of the firehole door. there is a large unstayed area. the commercial boiler makers i know (plus experienced amatuer builders) add extra stays as a matter of course, plus of course proper silver soldered bushes for regulator and wet header and all backhead fittings missing from the 1958/9 drawings.

michael's boiler without any paperwork would i expect be treated by most club boiler inspectors as a new boiler and subject quite naturally to rigorous testing and inspection. michael is well aware of these pitfalls having bought many locos without any or proper or valid boiler certificates.

in making the above observations i in no way mean to cast any aspersions on Nick952 or his father.

if michael has already sourced a replacement safety valve then why harp on about the seized up valve on the loco? the original LBSC design of safety valve for PANSY is in any event far inferior to what we accept these days! incidentally LBSC's 5/8" threaded busg for the safety valve is way over the top and very few can successully tap such a hole with such a large tap even if the bush is started off with a thread before silver soldering to the boiler. 1/2" x 26 tpi is perfectly adequate.

the clack valves on the original design hidden behind the pannier tanks are a bone of contention with many PANSY owners. i fitted clacks to the backhead with internal pipes to the front of the boiler as per the original batch of boilers which some of the preserved 57XX locos still have.

if anyone is interested i have a long list of corrections to the PANSY drawings particularly the valve gear my modifications of which don ashton very kindly checked and approved.

cheers,
julian

[terry1956]

Julian, lets get a few things right here. You seem to write on the misguided view that I am some sort of dealer.i am not.so let me break it down for you. I own a 7.25 invicta which is having a boiler made at western steam, waiting time 14 months.a 3.5 inch Canterbury lamb which sets on the dinning table for display.a polly 4 which was my first loco, hate the look of it but keep it as it was my first loco.a 5 inch gauge royal scot which I use at my local club, a 5 inch maid of kent which is used when the scot plays up and which I can carry without the need of a trolly to clubs without good excess and garden events.on the work bench a b1, and a speedy which as you know all take time to work on, boyh the b1 and the speedy are having their boilers worked on by peter carr.then I have the pansy and the columbia.all my locos bar the lamb and the pansy have club tests.the columbia was a dealer buy which turned into a mistake as the so say boiler test was useless and it leaks very badly, so is now also display.
As to my harting on re the safety valve, this is due if asking how to get the correct valve harting on to at present using the safety valve off the polly, a valve which is to large to take the brass cover of the pansy.as to the pansy boiler its commercial. So hope you are now happy julian, and I hope tht one day we meet and we can have a cup of tea and talk your little slights out.michael

[ejparrott]

Julian has just given you some very interesting historical information which is relevant to your case, in no way do I see anything in that post relating to you being a dealer or what it implies.

In answer to your question, if you brought the boiler to me with no paperwork, it would be a complete bare boiler required to have a 2xWP test.

[terry1956]

Ejparrott, julian implied I was a dealer in a further post.i have no objection to removing the boiler for inspection, but to be honest I just dont know what further information one will get that a pressure test will give. Many years back when I worked on pressure systems, we would of never dreamed of taking a system to bits unless it would not hold test pressure. Anyway out comes the boiler.thanks for your input ejparrott.

[jma1009]

hi michael,

i have never suggested or implied you are a dealer and know you are not. i have merely commented on the fact that you own or have bought some 10 locos. like you, i would much rather look at a miniature steam loco in my dining room than a painting etc (though whether other members of the family share my views is another matter!)

when you said you had fitted a polly valve to the PANSY i assumed you had bought a new safety valve from Polly Eng, as opposed to taking the safety valve off one of your other locos, as you had stated on your Maid of Kent injector thread (30th June) that you 'dont like swapping parts over'.

on PANSY the crosshead pump clack valve is a bit awkward to arrange to avoid it being completely inaccessible behind the pannier tank.
however for the injectors another option is to fit the clackvalve onto the end of the injector itself, as often described by LBSC for other designs. this is the arrangement i have fitted on 2 of my locos and also makes the injector look like the standard GWR arrangement in fullsize.

cheers,
julian

[terry1956]

Thanks julian, I have a thing about dealers having been had over by one.yes its a new valve but the brass valve cover will not fit now so needs some work still.at the moment I have the pansy boiler out of the loco.interested in your view on the position of the cleck valves.my understanding is that the valve as to have the ball run upright to work and that the valve had to be as near to the boiler as possible. My mind is working towards placing the valves in between the frame and the water tank and hiding it behind a second tool box on each side.
And yes I collect model locos, , napoleonic swords and armour, old britains lead cavalry figures. All these things I will be passing down to my son come the time, better then giving the government 40 percent in death duties. Michael

[ejparrott]

The valve does not HAVE to be vertical, Gordon Smith has done some experimental development on using horizontal ball valves with a lot of success. There are a lot of horizontal valves in industrial use too.

[jma1009]

hi michael,
if you make up a mandrel out of a lump of brass turned down to a press fit to fit the hole in the top of the safety valve cover then you can easily bore out the other end of the safety valve cover to the new size of valve. if the top also needs opening out then a second mandrel will be required being a repeat of the above but the other way round.
cheers,
julian

[terry1956]

Thanks julian.i have a few odd jobs to do first, ie the cleck valves for the injector and axle pump are home made and some odd thread pattern as been used.so some work needed here both to blank the boiler off for its test and also for the repostioned valves later on. My plan of action is first to see the boiler tested for him to take a look at the bear boiler.then sort out the blanks then the boiler hydraulic test.then the harder part of getting it ready for the steam test.i know the hand pump is ok, not to sure of the injector or axle pump.but will get the axle pump working first for the test.i never have luck with injectors so will play around with that one when the rest is working well.must say I like the look and feel of the pansy.just right for the odd track day without the need for trooleys etc.michael

[Roger]

Jul 31, 2014 19:44:12 GMT terry1956 said:

Hi john, its an axle pump fitted.have the tank off.to save the paint I used some masking tape that my other half uses.the tape as a very light glue so will not pull the paint off.i found that the cleck valve was stuck closed. With so much of the metal work off already I think I will removed the second tank to expose more of the boiler. With no paperwork I take it that the boiler tester will want to see the whole boiler.i have no idea why this is needed as if the boiler holds pressure during the test that shows all is ok.however if the pressure drops then I understand that a closer inspection may be needed.michael

I'd be very wary indeed of ever putting masking tape on any painted surface. I've ruined what I thought was completely hard paintwork while making SPEEDY and won't be making that mistake again. I'd get it off asap and hope you haven't ruined the paint.

[terry1956]

hi roger, the tape is something my partner gets from her work. its very very easy on paintwork. not at all like the white tape sold at Halfords etc. also it just washes off with water. michael

[Roger]

Aug 2, 2014 20:14:07 GMT terry1956 said:

hi roger, the tape is something my partner gets from her work. its very very easy on paintwork. not at all like the white tape sold at Halfords etc. also it just washes off with water. michael

Hi Michael,
I'd love to know that that is so I can get some. I've tried five different ones and they all damaged the paint.