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Post by Jo on May 21, 2007 10:11:53 GMT
Did anyone hear about the problem on the Watercress line where a volunteer (he was not a driver or engineer) was convicted of one count of sexual assault on a young girl: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/6670071.stmI wonder what the implications of this could be for us giving rides to children? There was some discussions on our local TV about the fact that charities can do background checks to make sure that those "working with children" were not on the sex offender's register for free.... Do we now need to consider this for our own clubs? How will our members feel when we say we want to do a check on them? It is hard enough to get people to turn up to do a spot of guarding with out more red tape! Jo
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 925
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Post by abby on May 21, 2007 12:18:07 GMT
The "sex offenders register" is a joke , in my opinion , there is no information available to "ordinary people " and consequently the only way you will find out is after the event. It is rather like allowing schizophrenics freedom because nothing can be done until they kill or maim someone , however the average persons details including credit rating appear to be available to anyone ! Abby.
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Post by houstonceng on May 21, 2007 12:29:58 GMT
Quite a difficult subject for which to find a guaranteed solution.
Police checks are certainly one way, but not something that the average club has access to - unless they are a registered charity or pay for the service if available. I'm not sure that all members would agree to them anyway
At our Club public running days, we have semi-officially adopted a number of alternative measures aimed at reducing the likelyhood of any member being accused of "sexual assault" - whether on a child or adult - as well as other actions which might be concidered "paedophilic" these days (like possessing photographs of children who are not related to you)
1. No club-member will assist an adult passenger on or off the train unless specifically asked by that adult for assistance. Such assistance is usually limited to providing a steadying hand - certainly NOT lifting anyone.
2. Children can only be assisted on or off the train by their parent, gardian or supervising adult. Thus avoiding any accusations of improper physical contact by a club-member.
3. All trains will have at least one adult non-club-member as a passenger in addition to the Driver and Guard. Preferably, all children on the train will be accompanied by at least one of their Parents, a Guardian or a Supervisor
4. The guard sits at the back of the last carriage and holds onto the back of his back-rest, thereby avoiding any suggestion of touching the passenger immediately in front of him.
5. The passenger immediately in front of the guard shall always be an adult. Preferably of the same gender as the guard.
6. Club-members are asked to avoid taking pictures of children who are not family members. If asked by a non-member passenger to take a picture for them (with the passenger's camera), the club-member is required to ask permission of the parents, guardians or supervisors of any other children who may be "caught in the frame".
7. A St John's Ambulance team is in attendance at each public running and, should a child fall over or be injured first-aid will be left to the St John's personnel and the child's Parent, Guardian or Supervisor. Thus avoiding any accusations of improper physical contact by a club-member.
8. Adults, if injured, will be attended by the St John's team and their partners or friends. Thus avoiding any accusations of improper physical contact by a club-member.
We are now thinking of insisting that all junior members must be accompanied to Club meetings by their Parent or Guardian
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Post by Boadicea on May 21, 2007 13:56:06 GMT
The "sex offenders register" is a joke , in my opinion , there is no information available to "ordinary people " and consequently the only way you will find out is after the event. It is rather like allowing schizophrenics freedom because nothing can be done until they kill or maim someone , however the average persons details including credit rating appear to be available to anyone ! Abby. Abby, I think it is done to protect the innocent - all that has to happen is to be accused and then they say there is no smoke without fire and the next thing is bricks through your windows. I am all in favour of this kind of information NOT being available to what you call "ordinary people" - I am in favour of the police knowing more, where the offenders are and acting accordingly - with responsibility. I do not trust who you call "ordinary people" to act responsibly with personal information. I have young children. There is a difference between this kind of information (which if inaccurate and/or misused may ruin lives) and bank account information which if misused merely causes inconvenience. I think this is unlikely to have anything to do with schizophrenics. Houstonceng, I think you are acting responsibly and have given many of us reason to think. There is a solution to the guarding issue that I am seeing increasingly at clubs and that is a guard's vehicle which is like a small driving truck attached on the back - keeping the guard totally separate and avoiding contact with ANYONE. I believe this to be a good solution - it has to be pulled but if you want to go the whole nine yards you can give the guard access to braking also. Regards, Bo.
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Post by havoc on May 21, 2007 18:21:47 GMT
Houstonceng, are you serious? I'm really shocked that such guidelines issued, let alone be needed. Personally I would quit if that became needed here.
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Post by alanstepney on May 21, 2007 18:32:40 GMT
Out of interest, this topic was touched upon in thread last year, entitled "Risk Assessment".
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Lurkio
Seasoned Member
Posts: 101
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Post by Lurkio on May 21, 2007 19:22:11 GMT
Houstonceng, I found your reply very interesting. "The world's gone mad".
Lurkio
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Post by Phil Sutton on May 21, 2007 20:02:07 GMT
Havoc and Lurkio are both right,the world has(or is going)mad.Unfortunately,though,this is the way it has gone,and these rules are there to protect the innocent ............Mind you,the guilty seem to get away with it Phil
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Post by andrewtoplis on May 21, 2007 21:18:09 GMT
Actually, I thought they were fairly sensible ideas...they all basically revolved around parents supervising their own children and letting the ambulance people deal with any injuries...what wrong with that? It all seems a bit heavy-duty, but they are all common sense. Parents have a duty to protect their kids too, so they should act responsibly.
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Lurkio
Seasoned Member
Posts: 101
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Post by Lurkio on May 21, 2007 22:16:36 GMT
This is quickly going off-topic I suspect. Andrew, you are right, parents should look after their kids, and medical people should attend to injuries. But over my life time we've moved, for example, from a society that encouraged 'gentlemen' to lend a hand to women, to one where it's almost unacceptable. When my son was young I organised and joined in with him and his pals in all sorts of games and sports - so did other fathers. Nowadays I would be wary of doing so. Can that be right? I'm all for common sense, and I realise times have changed. I also appreciate the serious side to all this. But I still think we've gone too far when measures such as those outlined above have to be drafted in. As Havoc indicates, it's not worth the effort IMHO.
Lurkio.
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 925
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Post by abby on May 21, 2007 23:08:58 GMT
Boadicea -I respect your views however as an "ordinary person" who has been almost killed by a schizo on the loose , who incidentally was a multiple offender , I feel that my safety and that of my children is in peril like no time before. Whilst I do not advocate mob rule I firmly believe that people have a right to know if a danger exists in their locality. If a person is named on the paedophile register it is because they have been found guilty of an offence which is unacceptable to our society and the majority will and do offend again. the welfare and rights of the offender seem to be given more consideration than those of the victim. I am a model maker not a politician , I consider myself to be liberal and certainly not fascist . but sometimes I would like to take the law into my own hands as it seems the only way to get justice.
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Post by houstonceng on May 21, 2007 23:17:52 GMT
Houstonceng, are you serious? I'm really shocked that such guidelines issued, let alone be needed. Personally I would quit if that became needed here. Unfortunately yes. These sort of measure have been discussed here - and elsewhere - as part of "risk assessment". You've only got to look at UK & US TV these days to see that any pictures with children in - say leaving school in the background to the presenter - always have the children's faces "pixilated" or else the camera only shows them from the neck down - unless their parents or guardians have given permission for their images to appear. Even convicted offenders have that right. I know it's a crazy world, but I don't want to quit it - or my club - yet.
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SteveW
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,395
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Post by SteveW on May 21, 2007 23:22:46 GMT
Guys,
This is a nightmare area for all enterprises that have a passing connection or young people. By putting measures in place to protect the innocent club member you are sort-of admitting to there being a not-so innocent member. It's a total no-win situation for everyone.
Generally our principle connection with young folk is that all/most of us were once young and probably learnt a great deal of useful stuff from older folk prepared to take an interest, I certainly did. The future of our hobby relies on sharing our interests with future generations. Maybe this has to end.
A point raised at one of our management meetings was the prospect of being caught in the loo when a young person wanders in. There was even the suggestion of this sort of thing being engineered to create and issue. Perhaps the best advice on getting 'caught' is not to think of something funny and walk out with a silly grin on one's face.
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on May 21, 2007 23:35:43 GMT
At the Chesterfield rally last weekend as I was chatting at the crossing barrier a small girl (2 ish years old) wandered away from the main area on her own, a concerned old lady asked her where mummy was. The girl pointed in the direction of the carpark area. Do you let her go off hoping she was right or do you hold on to her and hope mummy will come looking and thank you for holding onto her wandering child. Fortunately an agitated woman was spotted and was asked if said child was what she was looking for, problem solved. If I was alone in that area what do I do? The only place to go is the clubhouse but we have no PA system for communicating a lost child. How would I be viewed as a 32 year old male leading (admittedly back towards a safe area) a 2 year old girl? A club running day would be ok but as it was a public open weekend is more likely parent will not know me from Adam. Its such a minefield now what you can and cant do or say, a nanny state parent can now get upset about a train being photographed which just happens to be carrying their child. The world has indeed gone mad. We too have 'guidelines' on conduct which is safe legally when dealing with children. I'm sure it was in one of the club newsletters a year or 2 ago.
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SteveW
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,395
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Post by SteveW on May 22, 2007 22:25:20 GMT
Guys, I just spotted an item in the current EiM editorial about the imminent "Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act" due next year. It appears to require full criminal checks for all coaches/volunteers or a £5K fine. Ouch! The next debate will be on determining the scope of this legislation followed by a total over reaction by everyone in a position to issue guide lines. Maybe the future will be a virtual hobby only.
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simonwass
Part of the e-furniture
Cecil Pagets 2-6-2 of 1908. Engine number 2299. Would make a fascinating model....
Posts: 472
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Post by simonwass on May 22, 2007 22:34:15 GMT
Are model engineers 'volunteers' as such? We are all members of a club, ours is a limited one if that makes any diference? I can understand an organisation having 'volunteers' to help out with teaching and guidance but club members are all individuals of sort which happen to congregate on certain days and work together towards a club goal of some kind. I dont class myself as a volunteer.
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Post by Shawki Shlemon on May 23, 2007 10:08:10 GMT
In Australia for better or worst all club members fill forms to testify that they are not sex offenders and these forms are forwarded to the authorities for vetting .This will not stop a non convicted offender but how far we can go ? So far ( in the last 30 years ) I have not heard or seen any case in our club or those I sometime go to , but there is always the first time for ever thing . The world has changed not for better but for worst in many aspects of life other than technology .We can only do the best we can and inform the authorities of any suspicion .
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Post by alanstepney on May 23, 2007 14:33:43 GMT
I'm not sure that the world has changed. I suspect that things are little different now to what they used to be, with the exception that the media plugs everything so often that we believe things to be worse.
What would once have merited a paragraph in the local paper now gets prime time TV and radio at hourly intervals and the press rehashing it for days.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on May 25, 2007 7:55:49 GMT
With the increase in insurance needed for running with the public, safety standards which could see some sort of cage put over our hot bits, that could burn, and things that could rotate and catch little fingers, we could see more clubs giving up and only having members and invited guests at such events.
I sat reading the rules and regulations for adopting a child last year, we would fail at the first interview, and at the time our home would fail its inspection as well. hips hips hips. But, start your own little project round about last Christmas, and all is well.
And who says you can't have a station as a dolls house!!!!! lets find some plans. now what scale are the dolls?
David.
I still love all my projects.
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Post by andrewtoplis on May 25, 2007 12:16:41 GMT
Guys, I just spotted an item in the current EiM editorial about the imminent "Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act" due next year. It appears to require full criminal checks for all coaches/volunteers or a £5K fine. Ouch! But what is covered by this...anything which a child might go near? I can understand all sports coaches and similar jobs but this chap was working on a preserved line, could he not have reasonable argued that he was there to do a technical job such as drive the engine rather than being in a public capacity? Track workers, would they need a check even though they have minimal interaction...what about workshop staff? From what I can find online the Act seems to be aimed at people working in the NHS, schools and public bodies...I would be interested to know how far they cast the net and what is or isnt included.
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