5" gauge Britannia (a builder's diary)

[springcrocus]

Mar 26, 2017 16:56:53 GMT barlowworks said:

Excellent Steve. The tender is the part that I shall tackle first on my brit when I start and watching how you and Jim go about it will be a great help. As a complete novice I believe every bit of information is a bonus.

Mike

Hello, Mike.

Not just me and Jim, there is also Bob (92220), Dave (Vulcanbomber) and Geoff (routeledgeg) building or have built BR Standard tenders in 5" gauge and John (simplyloco) in 3.1/2" gauge so you have plenty to choose from. Each differs in it's level of detail and the machinery (or not, as the case may be) used to make all the parts and how the job has been approached. Apologies to anyone else who is building one that I have overlooked.

Regards, Steve

[RGR 60130]

If anyone is looking for Britannia castings please let me know what you need as my brother still has quite a few in a box under his bench. Rather than clutter Steve's thread, please send me a message.

Reg

[Jim]

Thanks Steve for the photos and explanations for how you tackled the tender sides which is my next task. I've quietly copied a couple of your photos to the desk top for reference.
As you say, we've all got our own preferences for how we tackle these tasks but seeing photos such as yours is for me at least, a "Now that's a good idea..I'll do that" sort of moment.

Jim

[springcrocus]

Once the bending work was finished, the tank sides were clamped to the mill table and had the lower section that connects to the sole plate reduced to the correct size. This was done with a small end mill but it chattered quite a bit until I balanced the cut at about thirty degrees.



The next job was to drill all the 3/64" rivet holes, one hundred and thirty per side, and this was done on the milling machine using co-ordinate drilling with the DRO. It wasn't possible to do them all in a single setup so each tank side was placed as far to one end of the table as possible and holes drilled until past the half-way mark. The sides were then moved to the other end of the table, a previous hole picked up for reference, and the rest of them drilled. Thanks to Roger for introducing me to the carbide PCB drills. All the holes were made using these, without any prior centre- or spot-drilling. I broke a couple early on whilst getting the feel for them but the job sailed along smoothly after that.



This was followed by mounting against an angle plate and the 1/16" dia holes drilled in the lower section for riveting to the sole plate. The rivet holes in the sole plate were also drilled at this time although all the other holes were held over for later.



Another job that required attention was to reduce the length of the upper tank section to the correct size for abutting the coal bunker. This was done by setting a slitting saw at the correct height above the mill table and the tank sides clamped down. As required, extra clamps were added to hold the centre section firmly to the table and dampen any vibration set up by the cutter.



Clamps were also added to the section that had been cut just in case the cutter grabbed and caused any probems. This was just a case of taking my time and feeling my way along the cut. After the half-way stage, the work was moved to the other end of the table and continuing to the end.



I stopped 1/8" short of the end and finished separating the parts with a hacksaw. Rear end next.

Thanks for looking in,

Steve

[Jim]

I'm paying very close attention to your progress Steve. It's always great to see how other's are approaching the same problems or tasks and how it worked out. Needless to say notes have been made.

Jim.

[springcrocus]

Mar 29, 2017 20:56:53 GMT Jim said:

I'm paying very close attention to your progress Steve. It's always great to see how other's are approaching the same problems or tasks and how it worked out. Needless to say notes have been made.

Jim.

Two-way street, Jim, quite a lot of your build pictures are stored in my reference library. Nobody knows it all and different backgrounds bring different approaches to any problem.

I have a great deal of admiration for those who went before us, they had no internet forums, just a monthly (fortnightly at one time) magazine and the occasional exhibition to exchange ideas yet they produced some fantastic work. Nowadays, we can learn from each other much more easily and, I'm sure, this has raised the bar somewhat in the both the quality and diversity of work from today's model engineer.

Regards, Steve

[Jim]

Very true Steve, the benefits of sites such as this are immeasurable for sharing ideas, techniques plus the chance to see in stages how other's have built their similar projects.
I've also had some great suggestions and ideas sent via email from very generous members who have been only too happy to share their experiences and or knowledge, none of which was possible as you say, back when the pioneers of this hobby such as Greenly and Co were blazing a path for us to follow.

Jim

[johnthepump]

Hi Steve,
You said in Rogers post that I had got the wrong number, is this what you required.
John

70000 by John The Pump, on Flickr

[springcrocus]

As with the tank sides, I had the rear panel guillotined from the 1/16" brass sheet and was pleased to find that the sizes of all the cuts were within ten thou of my requested dimensions. The drawing doesn't specify whether the end panel should butt up on the outside or fit inside the tank sides. I have chosen to have the end panels outside and are sized accordingly. The rear panel was clamped onto a piece of MDF, trued up and all the holes drilled using co-ordinate drilling on the mill with the DRO. The lamp irons shown on the drawing are not correct for the BR1 tender. I shall make irons that are more in keeping with Britannia's tender and I have postioned the fixing holes for these accordingly.



The drawing also calls for the panels to be riveted together with brass angles internally but I have chosen to use 8BA countersunk screws to fix the panels. These will be filled and rubbed down after assembly is complete. This is how the Modelworks tender appears to have been constructed and it means I can dismantle the tender at different times as needed. Riveting everything early on means any modifications become much more difficult to execute. The countersunk holes for all the fixing screws were put into the tank sides and angles at this point after working out an arrangement that wouldn't cause problems elsewhere. Once assembled, the form of the tank sides was scribed onto the rear panel, the panel taken off and the waste removed with hacksaw and files.



Just as an aside, many have praised the draughtsman, Les Warnett, for the level of detail on the drawings. Well, I'm in the minority because I think they are a complete mess. The whole thing has been drawn as a highly-detailed general arrangement layout leaving the builder to work out the missing dimensions or, when abutting another panel, making one's own overlap allowance. I've spent more time deciphering the damn things than I have cutting metal and would happily toss the whole lot in the bin if an alternative set were available from another draughtsman. Maybe it's my industrial background, and maybe this is how fabrication drawings are produced. Having been a machinist (or PRECISION engineer, as my colleagues prefered to call themselves  ), I have no experience of tin-bashing but I prefer drawings to detail the components, not just the whole assembly. Builders beware, take your time!

Thanks for looking in,

Steve

[jma1009]

Hi Steve,

I am very impressed with the tender build, and your choice of brass for the tender body is to be commended.

Any one building a LBSC or Don Young or Martin Evans designed side tank or tender is pretty much left to their own devices and interpretation of scant drawings, so I can see your point with the similarly lacking Les Warnett drawings. One ought to expect every bit of brass angle detailed and dimensioned, but it never is!

In particular your method of doing the curves to the tender sides is excellent. I made a right hash up of this on Stepney's side tanks with curved tops resorting to annealing the brass with consequent forseeable problems ie warping.

Have you had an issue with the brass angle used? Virtually all my small brass angle from various sources is definitely not a 90 degree section and has required extensive milling or filing to get the correct section.

I hope you will give added thought to the removable section on the front of the tender so the fire can be seen and fired 'on the run'.

I have only driven a 5"g Brit once or twice (Jack Thomas's 5"g award winning Brit), but have driven a few 5"g 9Fs including John Styles' example on the Cardiff track many times. I dont like long tenders in 5"g. They play havoc with my bad back.

Cheers,
Julian

[springcrocus]

Apr 2, 2017 23:11:25 GMT jma1009 said:

Hi Steve,

I am very impressed with the tender build, and your choice of brass for the tender body is to be commended.

Any one building a LBSC or Don Young or Martin Evans designed side tank or tender is pretty much left to their own devices and interpretation of scant drawings, so I can see your point with the similarly lacking Les Warnett drawings. One ought to expect every bit of brass angle detailed and dimensioned, but it never is!

In particular your method of doing the curves to the tender sides is excellent. I made a right hash up of this on Stepney's side tanks with curved tops resorting to annealing the brass with consequent forseeable problems ie warping.

Have you had an issue with the brass angle used? Virtually all my small brass angle from various sources is definitely not a 90 degree section and has required extensive milling or filing to get the correct section.

I hope you will give added thought to the removable section on the front of the tender so the fire can be seen and fired 'on the run'.

I have only driven a 5"g Brit once or twice (Jack Thomas's 5"g award winning Brit), but have driven a few 5"g 9Fs including John Styles' example on the Cardiff track many times. I dont like long tenders in 5"g. They play havoc with my bad back.

Cheers,
Julian

Thank you for yor kind comment, Julian. As regards the brass angle, I had difficulty sourcing an economic suppy and have resorted to making my own from the 16swg offcuts. Because these are not perfectly square, I have been milling them as I go and have accidently avoided the problem of out-of-square commercial material.

With regard to the removable section, well, you will just have to wait and see.

Regards, Steve

[springcrocus]

In a departure from the drawing, I made a centre supporting panel to add a bit of strength to the tank sides and to create somewhere to add two more brass angle supports. It fits just behind the coal bunker and has a piece of brass angle to support the rear of the bunker prior to soldering and has another piece on the other side to support the rear top plate. It was made 1/16" shorter than the internal height of the tank and the top plate sits on it, butting up to the coal bunker.

As before, all holes were drilled using co-ordinate drilling, and the centre sections were removed by drilling 3/8" dia holes at the corners and milling out with a 1/8" end mill.



Brass angles were made to suit which were riveted to the centre panel with 1/16" brass rivets. The panel is fixed to the tank sides and sole plate using 8BA brass countersunk screws. This panel is similar to the one that Modelworks used in their variation of this tender.



Thanks are due to John Johnston for the photos of his 5" gauge Britannia that showed me how these parts were made and utilised.



Thanks for looking in,

Steve

[92220]

Very nice bit of platework there Steve.

I'm sorry to say, you are right about Les Warnett's draughtsmanship. I'm afraid I have found so many basic errors between his drawings and the B.R. drawings, I find it hard to believe he was actually reputed to be an ex-B.R. draughtsman! Mistakes like missing out major holes in the loco frames, and siting the blow-down valve on the wrong side of the boiler, (to name just 2 errors from the many I have found) just should not have happened.

I've got the drawings of the 'extra' manhole on the rear of the tender. It is the water treatment equipment. Unfortunately the details of the actual cover are not on the drawing. All B.R. has done is arrow the lid, the upstand ring and the base ring and number them and refer to an obscure WR138572 drawing. The NRM hasn't got a copy of the WR drawing but pointed me to the Great Western Society. It turns out that they have a copy but they are in the process of moving their drawings collection (around 10,000 drawings) from High Wycombe to Didcot. When sorted and re-catalogued, they say I can have a copy. To hopefully speed this up, I've offered to go and help with the sorting and cataloguing as I only live 25 miles away from Didcot. When I've got full details, I'll let pass them on.

Bob

[Jim]

The tender is looking very nice Steve and giving me lots of ideas for completing my tender. John Johnson's blog is a gold mine of information as you say and he has been very helpful when I've emailed him to clarify details.

I have a copy of Perrier's drawings, the Derby GA drawings and those produced for the Hewson articles in ME plus, a collection of photos and they all show something different in terms of details.

It's enough to drive me to a soothing ale

Jim

[jma1009]

As a bit of an aside I met Les Warnett once or twice. He was quite elderly then but very chipper and with it. I think at the time he was describing the 3.5"g Lynton and Barnstable Railway Manning Wardle locos in EIM. He was indeed employed in the Brighton drawing office where much of historical interest was still filed carefully away, including a full set of the drawings for 'LEW', which Les obtained copies of. The originals did not survive the closure of Brighton works, and Les's copies have been of invaluable assistance in the 'LYD' rebuild on the FR.

Much was lost when Brighton works closed. Don Bradley had access to all the works records before closure. What he extracted from them and is in print in his books is sadly all that survives in most cases, plus Les's own contribution to the L&BR catalogue.

I am sure Bob Youldon could comment with far more personal knowledge and detail than me re Les Warnett.

You have to remember that when Les did the drawings for the 5"g 9F there wasnt an interest in those days in a super detailed loco. Plus at that time lots of fullsize drawings became unavailable as the old record collections of drawings that survived were moved to York uncataloged. What Les aimed at was a sturdy 5"g loco for passenger hauling to carry the punters. The nearest Beech Hurst got to this in those days was Johnny Seymour's WD loco which certainly earned it's keep!

Cheers,
Julian

[springcrocus]

The front bulkhead forms the forward extremity of the water tank leaving a short space between it and the front panel for the lockers in the centre and the water scoop and brake operating mechanisms on either side. This was made to be as close a fit as possible between the tank sides and sole plate to facilitate soldering. I also made the front panel at the same time and, as with the other panels, they will be fixed to the tank sides and sole plate using 8BA screws. The locker section will be removable to give the driver easier access to the footplate when firing and driving but can be replaced when on static display.

After getting the basic shape right, the panels were assembled as pictured here.





Next, the cutaway for the bunker was marked out on the bulkhead and removed. There are no dimensions given for this so I scaled things off the drawing, which is usually advised against but I had no other option here.





The last photo shows the bulkhead back in place but with the front panel removed.



I shall make the bunker floor next, and then the front panel will be further modified. I have read the comments about restricted access and seen the pictures of other people's method of overcoming the problem. I shall make the opening larger but haven't quite decided how yet.

Thanks for looking in,

Steve

[Deleted]

looking great Steve...regarding scaling from drawings....I take a measurement given on the drawing and check that it matches what it should be, sometimes they are out by a small amount due to shrinkage in the printing. If the drawing isn't spot on I just work out the ratio and then multiply (or divide if the drawing is to big) and then use that ratio for the rest of the measurements. Luckily most measurements are given in the drawings but not always and doing this keeps the unknown sizes in sync with the rest...hope that makes sense.....

Love the tender, looks very neat..

Pete

[Jim]

I agree with Pete, the tender looks very neat Steve and already notes have been made on some mods I've decided to make to mine having seen your approach.

Jim.

[springcrocus]

Apr 7, 2017 19:33:14 GMT Jim said:

I agree with Pete, the tender looks very neat Steve and already notes have been made on some mods I've decided to make to mine having seen your approach.

Jim.

I wouldn't take too much notice of my approach if I were you, Jim. As I've said before, tin-bashing is not really my thing. I'm going along on a wing and a prayer at the moment.

I just hope it all works out at the end. And thanks, Pete and Jim, for your kind comments.

Regards, Steve

[Jim]

Your 'wings' look pretty secure, strong and sensible to me Steve. I can't comment on the prayers, they don't work for me, I think the front desk has me on a 'Do not answer'list. 😆

Jim.