NickM
E-xcellent poster
Posts: 230
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Post by NickM on Jun 18, 2015 13:42:30 GMT
OK, clarification time; there is a difference between inspecting a boiler during construction, culminating in the 2 x working pressure shell test and the periodic 1.5 x WP hydraulic test and the steam test.
My understanding is that for certification under the current Model Engineering scheme, any amateur built boiler, irrespective of material or construction technique is required to be inspected and approved by the club boiler inspector(s) at different stages of construction. On completion, the boiler will be shell tested to 2 x WP.
The inspector should have relevant skills and knowledge of the techniques being used. In addition, if the boiler is welded and the amateur welder making the boiler is not coded, they should supply test pieces of the particular types of weld being used for approval by laboratory analysis. (Mr Club Boiler Tester saying ‘looks good to me’ would not constitute laboratory analysis).
There are many very proficient amateur MMA on steel welders in the ME fraternity who can weld to the required standard to produce a boiler but are not coded. Whether or not they would be willing to go to the cost of having their welds laboratory tested is another question, but this is a condition of the ME testing scheme.
The number of proficient TIG on copper welders in the ME fraternity will be a tiny fraction of the number of MMA on steel welders. How many club boiler inspectors have the practical experience of TIG welding copper? Hands up? Bear in mind that section 3.9.c of the book states that ‘the individual should know his limitations and should not act outside his level of qualification or knowledge’
Hence the boiler panel’s advice that club boiler testers do not inspect and approve amateur TIG welded copper boilers during construction - there is simply insufficient expertise of TIG on copper techniques within the ME fraternity.
There is no problem, as I implied in my first contribution, in a club boiler inspector performing a hydraulic and / or steam test on a boiler that has previously been shell tested, be that commercially or amateur built. This applies to welded steel, welded copper and silver soldered copper boilers. Periodic hydraulic and steam testing has a different skill set to inspecting a boiler during construction; extensive experience of running, using and maintaining boilers is considered appropriate experience. Club boiler inspectors are usually appointed by the committee who determine an inspector’s suitability, but it still remains the inspector’s responsibility to act within his level of qualification and knowledge.
Ron’s boiler, irrespective of the material, because it is welded, should have laboratory approved weld samples. If it hasn’t, it is definitely contravening the book and his clubs boiler inspectors are not following the guidelines. Ignorance of the guidelines is no excuse.
Regards
NickM
PS Don't quite get the specsavers reference?
PPS I don't make the rules.
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 18, 2015 14:50:51 GMT
I'm not on the ME forum so I haven't seen any pictures of this boiler.
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 18, 2015 19:02:14 GMT
The cross stays have been added after first pic and the long stays ect
Safety Valve bushes where re welded with Silver solder.
Still not fitted the top water feed Bush
admit i had not seen it on the Plan.
Ron
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Post by steamcoal on Jun 18, 2015 22:06:34 GMT
Still not fitted the top water feed Bush ...........admit I had not seen it on the Plan.
Think the last sentence says it all.
I have learned a lot from this thread, thanks. proceed with extreme caution.
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 18, 2015 22:14:51 GMT
Finally found the photo's on the ME Forum.
The one TIG-welded copper boiler manufacturer I know to be permitted under the scheme does not use flanged plates. They use flat plates positioned as per the drawing, with the wrappers lengthened as required. I notice you have have flanged plates and have welded them in.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Jun 18, 2015 22:32:44 GMT
i have been somewhat hesitant to comment on this thread as Ron and i have corresponded over this and his Simplex boiler. some of the pics refered to relate to Ron's Simplex boiler.
re NickM's comments, the regulations are quite clear and until amended i cannot see that Ron has done anything wrong, nor has his very accomplished and highly experienced club boiler inspector who is perfectly qualified to deal with all types of welded boilers. Ron has substantial TIG welding experience, plus his son is extremely experienced in TIG welding and has helped out. the Black 5 boiler was something Ron inherited as a boiler kit with the loco from his uncle. the problems that have occured in the final stages are not unknown and befall many unfortunately with seams opening up (this boiler is part TIG welded and part silver soldered). the problems have nothing whatsoever to do with the TIG welded joints.
it would be nice if we could be constructive and helpful, rather than negative and critical. boiler making is full of easy pitfalls for the unwary, those pitfalls being generally well known. however if we restrict this fund of knowledge there will be little option but for the commercial boiler route which will be a very sad day for this hobby as will put miniature locomotive building outside the pocket of very many including myself.
cheers,
julian
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Post by runner42 on Jun 18, 2015 23:34:16 GMT
I agree wholeheartedly with Julian, it was a cry for help but all Ron received was the rules and regulations from well intentioned members, but nothing to help solve his problem. These issues are academic only if the boiler cannot be sealed to withstand 2 x WP. I also think that Ron needed help in communicating his problem both in the narrative and with the addition of photographs to show us what his concerns are. Having trying to get a better understanding I visited the ME site and found a bit more information in the form of photographs. Although my first impressions reading Ron's inputs here was that he was someone who should not be attempting a relatively new method of copper boiler construction the photographs I did see was that Ron's workmanship is something I would be proud of. I hope that he achieves a pressure tight boiler as he's efforts so far deserves a successful outcome.
Brian |
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Post by steamcoal on Jun 19, 2015 2:59:34 GMT
Do MES Clubs operate a design group where prospective boiler builders can get around the table with all those person(s) going to be involved in the boiler build BEFORE the project is begun?
I do not mean just a chat out in the steaming bay with the BI but a good consultation with everyone involved so that all know what they have to do and that they have the required qualifications or experience.
This would take the form of a constructive talk about the project, preliminary look over the drawings and review of the material list and or any parts that may be to hand. Unfortunately this would not stop a lone builder launching off on the project with total disregard to the rules and requirements and ending up in a sticky mess like we have seen above. A club builder should not have any issues as long as communication is maintained between everyone and that they are aware of the procedure. A first timer may actually be more concerned with his own workmanship, and within the projects context this is plenty to be concerned with alone.
Would it be a good idea for a MES ( or Association ) to create a guidance document ( or is there already one?) rather than just saying "go read the code book". The Code rule book sets out the technical details and should come after the very,very basic foundation facts of the whole project are presented, and a talk to the BI whom is ultimately the one that will pass or fail ones boiler is surely the most valuable of discussions to have.
Could one say that some rules go over the head of a new boiler constructor? This should be avoided rather than be allowed to happen and I am sure a first time boiler constructor would rather be lead along by those with the qualifying authority and previous BI experience than pick their way through the design, material and workmanship stages by them self with minimal input which could lead to a proverbial derailment and catastrophe at the final hurdle.
It should not be a walk through a minefield but a guided walk in the park if one can put it that way.
Hayden
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Post by alanstepney on Jun 19, 2015 6:34:04 GMT
I have never heard of such a system operating in a UK club.
However, the vast majority of boilers are built to the published design, and follow "the words and music".
This is a different case, and needs some ideas to solve a problem, rather than a review of the rules.
As I have zero experience with TIG, I wont comment. My experience is mainly with silver-soldered boilers so I doubt that would help.
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Post by steamcoal on Jun 19, 2015 7:31:01 GMT
I will leave this thread for the problem solvers as you say.
Maybe I better start a new thread...it will be titled "I want to build a Maisie Boiler...where do I start?"
I really do need to build a Maisie boiler as I have bought a Maisie Frame and wheels. I could be the genuine guinea pig
bye.
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 19, 2015 9:06:36 GMT
There is such a system, NAME has a boiler sub-committee who deal with design matters.
Anyway, as I understand it, the insurance companies will not cover a home made TIG welded copper boiler, so whether or not it is inspected is a moot point
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 19, 2015 11:05:32 GMT
i have been somewhat hesitant to comment on this thread as Ron and i have corresponded over this and his Simplex boiler. some of the pics refered to relate to Ron's Simplex boiler. re NickM's comments, the regulations are quite clear and until amended i cannot see that Ron has done anything wrong, nor has his very accomplished and highly experienced club boiler inspector who is perfectly qualified to deal with all types of welded boilers. Ron has substantial TIG welding experience, plus his son is extremely experienced in TIG welding and has helped out. the Black 5 boiler was something Ron inherited as a boiler kit with the loco from his uncle. the problems that have occured in the final stages are not unknown and befall many unfortunately with seams opening up (this boiler is part TIG welded and part silver soldered). the problems have nothing whatsoever to do with the TIG welded joints. it would be nice if we could be constructive and helpful, rather than negative and critical. boiler making is full of easy pitfalls for the unwary, those pitfalls being generally well known. however if we restrict this fund of knowledge there will be little option but for the commercial boiler route which will be a very sad day for this hobby as will put miniature locomotive building outside the pocket of very many including myself. cheers, julian |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 19, 2015 11:15:00 GMT
Thank you for your comments as always very helpful i do beleave you are a true Model engineer who really does help as you have for me in the past.
If others where to take a leaf out of your book we would have far more model engineers instead of the hobby steadily dieing out.
And yes the Tig welded joint's are fine it is the silver solder i just have failed on.
It is not going like a varnish it ends up black and powdery.
Before it get's to this point the Solder is not running.
As yet i have not mastered it and confused why.
I also agree if we don't try to build a boiler it will die out and only expensive commercial boiler's available witch again will make it out of reach for a lot of Model engineers due to cost.
Yes we will make mistakes but surely if we put the mistakes right then i don't see the problem.
Such negative feedback from several means i should give up being a model engineer so i am so please to hear from you.
I will learn and solve the problem with helpful advice from people like yourself.
I wish you the very best
Ron
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Post by ejparrott on Jun 19, 2015 12:11:33 GMT
Rules are rules, don't accuse me of being unhelpful. I don't make the rules, but I have to abide by them, as do you. The MELG has said that home made TIG welded boilers are not permitted. Until such time as that changes, ME boiler inspectors are not allowed to certify them and that's the end of it.
Learn to silver solder on test pieces. When you've mastered it, then go on to an expensive boiler. For silver soldering advice talk to CUP Alloys, it's what they do.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Jun 19, 2015 13:32:45 GMT
i am a bit concerned that 'advice' from the panel NickM refers to at the seminar he attended hasnt yet resulted in an amendment to the UK boiler regs.
there are lots of people who have had some joints TIG welded on copper silver soldered boilers which have not been commercially built. i can think of a few, plus recall that Ken Swann's WREN boiler drawings specifies a TIG welded joint on the barrel. are all these locos (which have been issued with certificates in the past) now to have their boilers condemned when due for their next test? what is the status of the certificates currently issued for these boilers?!
Ron, many thanks for your kind words. i would agree with Ed's suggestion to contact CupAlloys. Keith is very helpful. i cannot myself understand what exactly is causing your silver soldering problems. it might be wrong flux or wrong grade of silver solder rods. my initial thought was that your use of charcoal as a thermal packing medium might be the culprit causing dirty joints and some kind of reaction as the charcoal 'smokes' and burns. i use Thermalite blocks obtainable very cheaply from any builders merchants. for flux you need Thessco F or equivalent for boiler work (and you need a lot of it!), and silverflo 55 rods.
you may find oxy-propane easier for silver soldering, or just plain propane, instead of oxy-acetylene.
a decent dunk in clean sulpuric acid solution then a scrub in clean hot soapy water would also i think be beneficial before attempting any further silver soldering.
and lastly do have a chat with your club boiler inspector as to what might have gone wrong and how best to proceed and agree a course of action with him.
what happens re a boiler certificate and insurance i suggest is for another day and not relevant here. there are lots of very well known model engineers who never got their loco boilers officially tested and certified. the late Don Young and Bert Brock are 2 names who spring to mind who never got their boilers officially tested!
cheers,
julian
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Post by alanstepney on Jun 19, 2015 14:23:22 GMT
Ahh, well, if it is the silver solder that is the problem then I may be able to help.
The two "secrets" are to make sure that everything is clean, and to get it hot enough.
I used to use oxy-acetylene, but unless you are VERY careful it can easily get TOO hot.
Simple propane, (or even parafin as I used to use) is enough.
Get the metal red hot, and the flux should turn to a nice liquid. At the same time the SS should melt.
The molten metal will flow TOWARDS the heat, so allow for that.
If you are using easyflo flux (or Cupalloys version of the same) it might be worth changing over to the higher temperature version which has a longer "hot life"
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 23, 2015 9:09:35 GMT
i am a bit concerned that 'advice' from the panel NickM refers to at the seminar he attended hasnt yet resulted in an amendment to the UK boiler regs. there are lots of people who have had some joints TIG welded on copper silver soldered boilers which have not been commercially built. i can think of a few, plus recall that Ken Swann's WREN boiler drawings specifies a TIG welded joint on the barrel. are all these locos (which have been issued with certificates in the past) now to have their boilers condemned when due for their next test? what is the status of the certificates currently issued for these boilers?! Ron, many thanks for your kind words. i would agree with Ed's suggestion to contact CupAlloys. Keith is very helpful. i cannot myself understand what exactly is causing your silver soldering problems. it might be wrong flux or wrong grade of silver solder rods. my initial thought was that your use of charcoal as a thermal packing medium might be the culprit causing dirty joints and some kind of reaction as the charcoal 'smokes' and burns. i use Thermalite blocks obtainable very cheaply from any builders merchants. for flux you need Thessco F or equivalent for boiler work (and you need a lot of it!), and silverflo 55 rods. you may find oxy-propane easier for silver soldering, or just plain propane, instead of oxy-acetylene. a decent dunk in clean sulpuric acid solution then a scrub in clean hot soapy water would also i think be beneficial before attempting any further silver soldering. and lastly do have a chat with your club boiler inspector as to what might have gone wrong and how best to proceed and agree a course of action with him. what happens re a boiler certificate and insurance i suggest is for another day and not relevant here. there are lots of very well known model engineers who never got their loco boilers officially tested and certified. the late Don Young and Bert Brock are 2 names who spring to mind who never got their boilers officially tested! cheers, julian |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 23, 2015 9:09:56 GMT
i am a bit concerned that 'advice' from the panel NickM refers to at the seminar he attended hasnt yet resulted in an amendment to the UK boiler regs. there are lots of people who have had some joints TIG welded on copper silver soldered boilers which have not been commercially built. i can think of a few, plus recall that Ken Swann's WREN boiler drawings specifies a TIG welded joint on the barrel. are all these locos (which have been issued with certificates in the past) now to have their boilers condemned when due for their next test? what is the status of the certificates currently issued for these boilers?! Ron, many thanks for your kind words. i would agree with Ed's suggestion to contact CupAlloys. Keith is very helpful. i cannot myself understand what exactly is causing your silver soldering problems. it might be wrong flux or wrong grade of silver solder rods. my initial thought was that your use of charcoal as a thermal packing medium might be the culprit causing dirty joints and some kind of reaction as the charcoal 'smokes' and burns. i use Thermalite blocks obtainable very cheaply from any builders merchants. for flux you need Thessco F or equivalent for boiler work (and you need a lot of it!), and silverflo 55 rods. you may find oxy-propane easier for silver soldering, or just plain propane, instead of oxy-acetylene. a decent dunk in clean sulpuric acid solution then a scrub in clean hot soapy water would also i think be beneficial before attempting any further silver soldering. and lastly do have a chat with your club boiler inspector as to what might have gone wrong and how best to proceed and agree a course of action with him. what happens re a boiler certificate and insurance i suggest is for another day and not relevant here. there are lots of very well known model engineers who never got their loco boilers officially tested and certified. the late Don Young and Bert Brock are 2 names who spring to mind who never got their boilers officially tested! cheers, julian |
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Post by ronhancock on Jun 23, 2015 9:14:29 GMT
Hi Julian
I have given up on the Idea of making the boiler myself and decided to go for a new one.
I have had a few prices some very high but a couple that i can manage.
I have heard their have been several update's of Don Young's design especially the the bridge's on top of the firebox that fouled the Regulator.
Do you know where i can find the new design before i send the drawing i have to them please.
Ron
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,917
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Post by jma1009 on Jun 23, 2015 13:43:48 GMT
hi ron,
i have sent you a Private Message.
cheers,
julian
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