smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Oct 26, 2021 14:45:01 GMT
I just think there comes a point where you doff your cap to some pure artistry!
Pete.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Oct 26, 2021 15:15:37 GMT
Pete/Jon The majority of engineers do not get involved with artistic side of things, so do not denigrate yourselves. In the car industry design studio filled what who used to be called 'felt tip fairies' do all artistic swishing lines things, but the Engineers have to sort out how to make it work. Architects are not so bad but it is again left to the engineers to make it work and so it goes on. Remember without engineers we would still be living in caves, hunting for food.
Must get off my soap box now!
Dave
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 26, 2021 17:29:50 GMT
When I started in a civil engineering design office in 1971,'Form follows function' was the rule. The engineers designed the bridges, then brought the architect in at the end to round a few edges and generally tidy it up a bit, but that was all. Now the architect rules, produces elaborate fanciful designs, and the poor engineers have to make it work. Grr. Glad I'm retired. 'Keep it simple, make it strong' was my philosophy.
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Post by fubar123 on Oct 26, 2021 17:41:00 GMT
Fit, Form and Function is what I use still after about 40 odd years
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Post by jon38r80 on Oct 26, 2021 18:40:37 GMT
As a result of a minor environmental disaster ( I knocked over the last of the Rigid cutting oil that I have)I am faced with the dilemma of what to buy to replace it. I aquired the Rigid oil (Its used for machine threading pipework on construction sites) and have used it cos Ive got it, I'm not praticularly heartbroken at its loss , I dont use it much anyway except for particularly difficult bits of unidentifiable metal and threading with taps and dies, and generaly machine dry but its loss means I dont have anything now. I know the subject has surfaced on here more than once before but I cant get the 'search' to raise any coherent discussion (probably my lousy choice of key words). So at the risk of starting a heated debate again can proponents of using cutting fluid suggest a suitable replacement. I have no interest in soluble oils, I have no delivery system on lathe or milling machine and have no intention of buying one either. I'll post this now and hope that a cogent debate or advice will result.
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Post by jon38r80 on Oct 26, 2021 18:50:28 GMT
As a Civil Engineer who spent most of his working life building buildings rather than playing mud pies, I spent a great deal of time and effort making the flights of fancy produced by Architects stand up. If it were not for Architects a great many of the magnificent buildings in the world would not have been conceived and if it were not for some very ingenious engineers they would not have been built either (not me I hasten to add). There is definitely a place for both professions.
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Post by andyhigham on Oct 26, 2021 19:07:12 GMT
A classic example of form over function was the millenium bridge over the Thames. An architect doing a structural engineers job. I am an electrician and I could see it wouldn't work
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on Oct 26, 2021 21:41:46 GMT
I seem to have triggered something that I didn't intend to do.
I am very happy with the engineering work I did in my professional career. I was just highlighting my lack of artistic talent. The pot made by Jodie Neale is a lovely thing and I was just trying to express how much better the world is with such gifted folk to make these things. On the other hand, imagine the state of the world if it wasn't for us engineers!
Pete.
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Post by springcrocus on Oct 26, 2021 22:13:58 GMT
So at the risk of starting a heated debate again can proponents of using cutting fluid suggest a suitable replacement. I have no interest in soluble oils, I have no delivery system on lathe or milling machine and have no intention of buying one either. I'll post this now and hope that a cogent debate or advice will result. Why? Soluble oil does not need to be delivered by a pump. I use soluble oil on a regular basis and use a 12mm paint brush to apply it. It depends on what you are expecting the fluid to do for you.
Cutting fluid has two functions, depending on what you are trying to achieve. The first is to cool the tool and the workpiece so that high rates of metal removal can be achieved without destroying the temper of the tool and, thus, blunting it. Industry use flood-coolant for this purpose because time is money but, for the model engineer, surely this does not apply. Is it a hobby or is it a race? The second is to wet/whet the tool to stop the cut material welding itself to the tool. Some materials, notably aluminium and it's alloys, will try and fuse to the cutter, more-so with tungsten carbide than with HSS. The cutting fluid reduces the surface tension between the materials and reduces the likelyhood of this happening.
A general-purpose soluble oil normally has a dilution-rate of about 25-1 but I mix mine at nearer to 15-1 because it sticks to the work better. Those in industry are generally trying to save money and probably try and make the soluble oil go even further, maybe 30-or 35-1, but bean-counters don't normally make good engineers (apologies to Wilf here). I don't usually have problems with surface finish due to poor lubrication.
Extreme environments like grinding use a different class of cutting fluid, either neat cutting oil or EP soluble oil (whch is very thin), and things like tapping are better served by specialist cutting pastes such as ROCOL RTD or Trefolex. But a strong soluble oil mix can serve you very well in normal turning, milling or drilling operations and it's still cheaper than some of the fancy alternatives.
And, of course, I could be talking a load of old cobblers but it will be intersting to see what others think.
Regards, Steve
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,438
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Post by dscott on Oct 26, 2021 23:36:32 GMT
I have even used Flora for tapping... Getting a lump out of the tub from the fridge and it worked well. Look I know REAL Engineers would dip their taps in the tub and go and use it at lunchtime but we just do models. Spare Car oil that some give out after a service! (Well covered by the service charge. Used in an old paint cap taped to a round lump of steel with a paintbrush. Without the lump of metal it tends to tip over!!!!
David and Lily.
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Post by jon38r80 on Oct 27, 2021 0:23:19 GMT
Steve You raise some very interesting points about my predjudice against soluble oils. I have not considered applying soluble oil by any other method than the 'suds' from a pumped supply that I encountered at school which always smelt unpleasant and didnt realy seem to help the cutting other than cool it. It just got everywhere and made cleaning a machine unpleasant. I also dont think its a good idea to chuck all that water about onto a machine that is made of metals that readily corrode and spray electric bits that are none too well sealed against ingress. I have read many complaints of soluble oils causing those problems. Why do you dilute at all if it works better at lower dilutions. Perhaps I should consider buying soluble oil but not dilute it .
The oil I had was 'free' and didnt need dilution so I never really considered anything else. For tapping I also have a can of a sludgy lubricanmt made by BOSS called 'Super cutting compound' but sometimes for threading I used the Rigid cutting oil when I couldnt be bothered to get the can of cutting compound out it, does work better than the oil though. As you can probably geuss my source of supply was friendly M&E contractors on site, now I'm retired those sources are no longer available to me. I have never used much cutting oil for milling or lathe work at all but when cutting a bit of metal that wont cooperate being of dubious parentage or when using delicate tooling like dovetail cutters I slap oil all over the place with a brush or oil can. My lathe is such that you cannot take greedy cuts or it just stalls or the drive belt slips so rarely does the cutting oil come into play for that . I suppose what it boils down to is I was never trained by anyone to use the lathe or milling machine and just used what materials I had when I got my own machines and didnt need buy anything before now and when you start looking one is spoilt for choice. David The the oil loss occured because the spill proof oil can with a brush in its mouth got knocked over ( it is one of thse tins with a tube in the top much like the spill proof paint pots they have for small children) and despite all claims they are patently not spill proof if you are as clumsy as I am. If you service your own car there never is any spare oil. Rather than Flora I would have thought that dripping would be better, at least it tastes better on toast than marg.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 27, 2021 1:09:12 GMT
I use some stuff called Biocool that I got from Reeves, but only diluted 5-1 so its still really oily, and I don't have any problem with corrosion on the machines. I've got it mixed up in a 1 litre plant sprayer I got from the garden centre. I don't use it much, so the present batch has been in about a year and no sign of it going rancid. Nearly time for a new batch. For years I used a squeezy washing up liquid bottle with a piece of 1/8" copper pipe as a nozzle. For tapping I use Trefolux, had this tin about 10 years, am about half way down it, so it will probably see me out.
I have heard of lard oil being used but I've never tried it. I imagine that could well turn rancid in hot weather, same as milk that used to be recommended for cutting copper apparently. Then there was whale oil for hardening and tempering-- factories must have been really smelly places to work.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 27, 2021 1:55:06 GMT
I'm resisting the temptation to air my views on architects, in case one of the members here is an architect and would be mortally offended by my comments. I believe that there are sane, sensible architects out there, its just that I never happened to meet one--.
As for the Millenium Bridge, the design won in competition, on the basis of its appearance, not on the basis of its practability as a bridge. Footbridges are, by their nature long and slender and prone to movement, especially the suspension and cable stay ones. The design codes warn you of this. In fact I can't think of a cable stay/suspension footbridge that I've been on that I couldn't get to move if I tried hard enough. A lot of them have dampers consisting of a rubber filled tube around the cable(s) where it passes the handrail, welded or clamped to the handrail. Real hi-tech stuff, but it works well enough. Yes, poor old Millenium had inbuilt (entirely predicable IMHO) issues, but made worse by the publicity so folks would go along and deliberately try to make it move.
Anyway, rant over, what did I do today? Finished off the last of the many square headed tie rods and nuts for Locomotion's wooden tender, now just got some minature coach screws to make by silver soldering a square head to a steel woodscrew shank. Fortunately I've still got some suitable unplated screws so no issues with heating zinc or cadmium plated screws.
My local farm shop was offering pumpkins for £2 each, so I couldn't resist a big one, carving it out with eyes, nose and lots of teeth. Its sitting on the garden wall with one of those flickering candle tea lights in it. Scary!
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Post by springcrocus on Oct 27, 2021 7:10:57 GMT
Steve Why do you dilute at all if it works better at lower dilutions. Perhaps I should consider buying soluble oil but not dilute it . The oil I had was 'free' and didnt need dilution so I never really considered anything else. Jon, a secondary function of soluble oil is to flush away the detritus so thinning it with water helps considerably with this. It also cools things better than oil alone because it takes the heat with it when it flows away. Oil (or undiluted soluble oil), being thicker, tends to hold the tiny particles of swarf in suspension close to the cutting point and this reduces both it's lubricating and cooling properties.
The only time I've had a rust problem is when I overthinned some and a bit of rust set in under the milling vice. After I cleaned this up, I've been more careful and never had a recurrence. Also, because I only mix a jamjar at a time, it never lasts long enough to go "off" like Richard mentioned. When I had the factory, it was a regular event to clean out the suds tank at the back of machines when the stink got too bad.
Regards, Steve
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Post by Roger on Oct 27, 2021 7:27:36 GMT
Steve Why do you dilute at all if it works better at lower dilutions. Perhaps I should consider buying soluble oil but not dilute it . The oil I had was 'free' and didnt need dilution so I never really considered anything else. Jon, a secondary function of soluble oil is to flush away the detritus so thinning it with water helps considerably with this. It also cools things better than oil alone because it takes the heat with it when it flows away. Oil (or undiluted soluble oil), being thicker, tends to hold the tiny particles of swarf in suspension close to the cutting point and this reduces both it's lubricating and cooling properties.
The only time I've had a rust problem is when I overthinned some and a bit of rust set in under the milling vice. After I cleaned this up, I've been more careful and never had a recurrence. Also, because I only mix a jamjar at a time, it never lasts long enough to go "off" like Richard mentioned. When I had the factory, it was a regular event to clean out the suds tank at the back of machines when the stink got too bad.
Regards, Steve
Hi Steve, I'm not sure I agree about cutting oil being less effective at removing heat. It does smoke though if you don't pump it in enough volume for the amount of heat you're generating. Personally I find that it's smoother when cutting than soluble oil, but it is messy. I really like it though, and I wouldn't go back to soluble oil. I'm sure it's more effective when you're doing more demanding cuts such as when parting off.
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Post by springcrocus on Oct 27, 2021 10:18:47 GMT
Jon, a secondary function of soluble oil is to flush away the detritus so thinning it with water helps considerably with this. It also cools things better than oil alone because it takes the heat with it when it flows away. Oil (or undiluted soluble oil), being thicker, tends to hold the tiny particles of swarf in suspension close to the cutting point and this reduces both it's lubricating and cooling properties.
The only time I've had a rust problem is when I overthinned some and a bit of rust set in under the milling vice. After I cleaned this up, I've been more careful and never had a recurrence. Also, because I only mix a jamjar at a time, it never lasts long enough to go "off" like Richard mentioned. When I had the factory, it was a regular event to clean out the suds tank at the back of machines when the stink got too bad.
Regards, Steve
Hi Steve, I'm not sure I agree about cutting oil being less effective at removing heat. It does smoke though if you don't pump it in enough volume for the amount of heat you're generating. Personally I find that it's smoother when cutting than soluble oil, but it is messy. I really like it though, and I wouldn't go back to soluble oil. I'm sure it's more effective when you're doing more demanding cuts such as when parting off. A misunderstanding, I think. I was referring to undiluted soluble oil which is a thicker consistency than neat cutting oil. I agree that neat cutting oil is better than soluble in practically all applications because it is quite thin. However, it is not really suitable for brush application and Jon specifically stated that he wanted an unpumped solution. I still think that a strong suds mix is superior for brush application.
Regards, Steve
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,722
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Post by mbrown on Oct 27, 2021 11:06:57 GMT
I use CT90 cutting oil in an aerosol. The "foaming" variety is quite good because it seems easier to direct to the exact point where it is needed, especially using the fine tube supplied.
It does leave the machine rather oilier than soluble oil, but I find that manageable.
Malcolm
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Post by simplyloco on Oct 27, 2021 15:31:45 GMT
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Post by jon38r80 on Oct 28, 2021 10:22:00 GMT
Thankyou Gentlemen. I still think I will stick with neat oil and a brush or maybe undiluted soluble oil and a brush or oil can.
One thing surprised me quite a lot when I started trawling the internet was the price of these oils. I dont want much, probably a litre will see me out and I certainly have no interest in an oil drum full. Also a lot of people selling it dont make data sheets readily available so if you find something at a good price you have to find a data sheet for the product. My interest in the content is to try and avoid those that are likely to upset Asthma (mine has got slowly worse on its own with age and doesnt need any help) Reading around it seems Chlorinated oils are not a good idea for me as vapours when smoking or aerosoled by the machining process are not helpfull and I dont want to have to wear a filter mask , its hard enough to see with glasses as it is. I will keep looking as I am not in too much of a hurry as I think I said before , I dont use it much preferring to cut dry.
Another reason for not wanting a pumped suds system is that although my lathe has a drip/splash tray it isnt oil/water tight and has no provision for a drain to a sump. Whilst I am not averse to drilling holes in bits of my machines or modifying bits I dont like, taking the whole thing to bits and adding drainage to it and the bench it sits on seems like too much trouble for a system I dont like anyway. Heat disapation isnt that much of a problem to me, the lathe wont take greedy cuts so blue smoking chips are a rare event unless I get the feed rate a bit wrong.
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johnd
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 282
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Post by johnd on Oct 28, 2021 10:31:12 GMT
Been using 5% soluble oil, without any problems, applied by one of these squeeze bottles with a tiny metal tube. You can apply just whats needed to the exact cutting spot, I’ve found it very useful for parting off as the metal tip can be placed almost in the cut. No waste, little mess. Also have CT90 for challenging metals.
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