johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 23, 2022 19:16:34 GMT
For last Wednesday evening session, I decided that we would investigate my Eagle surface grinder's headstock, as it didn't want to start in this cold weather. So we stripped it down and found the bearing housings stuffed to the top full of grease. After we had dug out the grease we set about removing the spindle and the bearings. That took up the evening. Over the next couple of days I washed out the bearings, repacked them with grease and reassembled. It now starts up in the cold. 22.01.22 by John The Pump, on Flickr
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Jan 23, 2022 19:40:20 GMT
It had SO MUCH GREASE in it. The oilers on the top are a slight mystery. The specified lubricant is a grease, but these deliver it on top of the shaft, beside the bearings. The left hand end has an opposed pair of bearings, so delivering a blob of stuff on one side and expecting it to somehow migrate through is beyond me.
And, unless you can see it leaking out, to keep adding more can only lead to the result we found on stripping it.
Wilf
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Post by gclarke on Jan 24, 2022 4:22:54 GMT
Wilf, Those oilers look very familiar to me as my Atlas shaper has them on the main shaft on the ends. With my shaper, the instructions are to fill the cups with grease and then tighten the lids very so often a specified amount. The screwing down of the lids hydraulically forces the grease where it needs to go. Mine has opposed bearings too and the grease hole is between the 2 bearings. You may want to find the manual and see if there are similar instructions for your grinder. The knurled grease cup lids suggest it may be similar.. Gary
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Post by Roger on Jan 24, 2022 8:21:55 GMT
I suspect that the wrong grease was being used. You need very little grease if it's the type made for High Speed Bearings. In fact, some of the spindles we used to repair used greased bearings at 80,000RPM and the grease lasted the life of the bearings after they were run in to clear the grease from the ball tracks. Those spindles took days to progressively build up the speed so that the grease could be gradually moved without melting it. Push your luck and the grease would melt, the balls would aquaplane, chatter and destroy the bearings. Done correctly, you could spin the shaft by hand and think it only had oil in it. They last for years, running flat out. The 'greasy' part of the grease then becomes just a reservoir for the oil to wick into the ball track. Happy days.
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 24, 2022 10:53:57 GMT
I suspect that the wrong grease was being used. You need very little grease if it's the type made for High Speed Bearings. In fact, some of the spindles we used to repair used greased bearings at 80,000RPM and the grease lasted the life of the bearings after they were run in to clear the grease from the ball tracks. Those spindles took days to progressively build up the speed so that the grease could be gradually moved without melting it. Push your luck and the grease would melt, the balls would aquaplane, chatter and destroy the bearings. Done correctly, you could spin the shaft by hand and think it only had oil in it. They last for years, running flat out. The 'greasy' part of the grease then becomes just a reservoir for the oil to wick into the ball track. Happy days. Hi Roger, I bought the machine about fifteen years or so ago, it had not been used yet the previous owner. Where it came before that is unknown, but I suspect it was a factory clearance in Cowes. I bought some sapphire 1 grease and have only used a tiny amount in all that time, what grease was put in before is anyone’s guess. This machine came fitted with a single phase motor and they don’t do well starting cold bearings. I will see how it goes when I use it next, which will be to grind the slide bars that we are working on, if the surface finish is poor than I may have to replace the bearings. Regards John.
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Post by cplmickey on Jan 26, 2022 9:18:20 GMT
Wilf, Those oilers look very familiar to me as my Atlas shaper has them on the main shaft on the ends. Gary My Atlas lathe also has these cups and just last week it wouldn't go up to full speed in the higher gears. I wonder if it's the cold bearings, too much grease or a combination of the 2. The motor works fine off load so maybe I need to put the heater on. Ian
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 29, 2022 19:11:29 GMT
With the the surface grinder put back together, it did start up but the bearings are just as noisy as before. So I have decided when weather gets warmer I am going to replace all the bearings including those in the motor as that was noisy as well. I just do not fancy laying on a cold floor to remove the motor. I did however grind up the material to make the slide bars for the loco and the finish would be improved with new bearings. 26.01.22 by John The Pump, on Flickr The bar in the middle was made some time ago to set up the motion brackets, it wasn't the correct width but was available at the time.
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Jan 29, 2022 19:24:53 GMT
Just as a preamble to John's grinding of the slide bars: We had cut these out from a larger lump on one of the weekly Pumphouse sessions. The skin had been machined off the edges of a piece of BMS, then the blanks had been sawn off with a slitting saw in the milling machine.
Being stingy model engineers, we didn't want to waste any material, so the excess on each blank was left to a minimum.
The first one off went a bit banana so was coaxed into shape in the fly press. The second one was straighter. To save an over-long grinding session, the blanks were skimmed down to a few thou oversize on the mill. The ends of one were a bit under - but these get reduced in height for the mounts, so they'll be fine. Result!
Wilf
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Post by Roger on Jan 29, 2022 20:18:42 GMT
With the the surface grinder put back together, it did start up but the bearings are just as noisy as before. So I have decided when weather gets warmer I am going to replace all the bearings including those in the motor as that was noisy as well. I just do not fancy laying on a cold floor to remove the motor. I did however grind up the material to make the slide bars for the loco and the finish would be improved with new bearings. 26.01.22 by John The Pump, on Flickr The bar in the middle was made some time ago to set up the motion brackets, it wasn't the correct width but was available at the time. Have you checked the bearing preload? It may just be that there isn't any. These are presumably Angular Contact bearings, and there will either be shims or the assembly will have been ground to give the correct amount. A clock on the end of the shaft will give you some idea as to whether there's any end float on the shaft when you push and pull on it axially.
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 29, 2022 20:40:28 GMT
Before Christmas while working at the men in sheds Browns Power Pavilion project. We were working in exhaust silencer pit digging out debris, so that a rust hole in the pipe to the silencer could be dealt with. As one of the team passed by the 16 foot tall exhaust chimney they leaned against it and it gently toppled into an adjacent tree. It turns out when when the side of the building had its wooden cladding replaced the stays to the chimney were not re-fixed to the building, this was long before the men in sheds team got involved. I must point out that our access is on foot via a path through a wood. the wheelbarrow is how we transport tools etc. We are not allowed to use heat as the building is wooden and listed, there is no magic pool of money we just do what Model engineers do best :- look in the scape box. As it turned out the chimney had a flange at the bottom and the break occurred in a short piece about a foot long joined to the silencer, it was not possible to remove this so the solution was to make a bolt up sleeve coupler. I manage to scrounge a 7 inch piece of 4 inch ID pipe and I had a 18 inch piece of 2 1/2 inch ID pipe. I recovered the flange and bored it out removing the old pipe, the short piece of 4 inch diameter was welded into the flange. The 18" was cut in half and they were slitted along there length then opened up using the fly press until they fitted to the 4" pipe, they were then trimmed to be just under half the diameter and the clamping edges welded on. Rusted pipe repair by John The Pump, on Flickr Rusted pipe repair by John The Pump, on Flickr [a href="https://www.flickr.com/gp/137901083@N08/65E9Hr"]09.01.22[/a] by John The Pump, on Flickr Exhaust repair by John The Pump, on Flickr The concrete slab in front of the pipe has now been trimmed to fit. After over 60 years of being dormant two of the three engines do start, now for the big one 66hp with an 8 ton flywheel, that needs a lot of things to be sorted. all the time we have to keep pumping water out of the bilges as this site is low lying.
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 29, 2022 20:51:18 GMT
With the the surface grinder put back together, it did start up but the bearings are just as noisy as before. So I have decided when weather gets warmer I am going to replace all the bearings including those in the motor as that was noisy as well. I just do not fancy laying on a cold floor to remove the motor. I did however grind up the material to make the slide bars for the loco and the finish would be improved with new bearings. 26.01.22 by John The Pump, on Flickr The bar in the middle was made some time ago to set up the motion brackets, it wasn't the correct width but was available at the time. Have you checked the bearing preload? It may just be that there isn't any. These are presumably Angular Contact bearings, and there will either be shims or the assembly will have been ground to give the correct amount. A clock on the end of the shaft will give you some idea as to whether there's any end float on the shaft when you push and pull on it axially. Hi Roger, I will do those checks, the front bearings are two opposed taper roller bearings and the rear bearing is a deep grooved ball race which was noisy when we had it out. the motor was noisy when I tried out with the drive belt removed. So I will go investigate when the weather is warmer. John.
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Post by Roger on Jan 29, 2022 21:43:36 GMT
Have you checked the bearing preload? It may just be that there isn't any. These are presumably Angular Contact bearings, and there will either be shims or the assembly will have been ground to give the correct amount. A clock on the end of the shaft will give you some idea as to whether there's any end float on the shaft when you push and pull on it axially. Hi Roger, I will do those checks, the front bearings are two opposed taper roller bearings and the rear bearing is a deep grooved ball race which was noisy when we had it out. the motor was noisy when I tried out with the drive belt removed. So I will go investigate when the weather is warmer. John. Hi John, I would excpect the front pair to have some preload, and the rear deep groove bearing should have a wavy washer behind it in my opinion, else it will be noisy. All bearings need preload, I don't think that rear bearing should be any different.
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 29, 2022 23:34:20 GMT
Hi Roger, I will do those checks, the front bearings are two opposed taper roller bearings and the rear bearing is a deep grooved ball race which was noisy when we had it out. the motor was noisy when I tried out with the drive belt removed. So I will go investigate when the weather is warmer. John. Hi John, I would excpect the front pair to have some preload, and the rear deep groove bearing should have a wavy washer behind it in my opinion, else it will be noisy. All bearings need preload, I don't think that rear bearing should be any different. Hi Roger, When Wilf and I stripped the head down after removing most of the grease. We found the two taper roller bearing outers are held between shoulder at the back of the front housing and the nose cap, the inners locate on a step on the shaft and a tubular collar that the grinding wheel boss presses on, so when the wheel is in place and the nut done up they are locked together. The rear bearing is held on the shaft with a sleeve and a nut, however the outer of the race is not registered in anyway as the bore is straight through. The grease cups just feed into the cavities and don't make a lot of sense either.
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Post by Roger on Jan 29, 2022 23:55:35 GMT
Hi John, I would excpect the front pair to have some preload, and the rear deep groove bearing should have a wavy washer behind it in my opinion, else it will be noisy. All bearings need preload, I don't think that rear bearing should be any different. Hi Roger, When Wilf and I stripped the head down after removing most of the grease. We found the two taper roller bearing outers are held between shoulder at the back of the front housing and the nose cap, the inners locate on a step on the shaft and a tubular collar that the grinding wheel boss presses on, so when the wheel is in place and the nut done up they are locked together. The rear bearing is held on the shaft with a sleeve and a nut, however the outer of the race is not registered in anyway as the bore is straight through. The grease cups just feed into the cavities and don't make a lot of sense either. Hi John, The taper roller bearings sound right, the spacer on the shaft should be ground to give the right preload. On most preloaded bearings, they're sold as matched pairs and the preload is built into the bearing. By that I mean that bolting them face to face with the inner and outer races touching applies the correct preload. If there are inner and outer spacers between the bearings, they're usually ground together so they're the same length. I think I'd be inclined to add a wavy washer and a spacer to apply preload to that tail bearing. Without that, it's no wonder it's rattling around.
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Jan 31, 2022 20:02:33 GMT
Hi Roger, When Wilf and I stripped the head down after removing most of the grease. We found the two taper roller bearing outers are held between shoulder at the back of the front housing and the nose cap, the inners locate on a step on the shaft and a tubular collar that the grinding wheel boss presses on, so when the wheel is in place and the nut done up they are locked together. The rear bearing is held on the shaft with a sleeve and a nut, however the outer of the race is not registered in anyway as the bore is straight through. The grease cups just feed into the cavities and don't make a lot of sense either. Hi John, The taper roller bearings sound right, the spacer on the shaft should be ground to give the right preload. On most preloaded bearings, they're sold as matched pairs and the preload is built into the bearing. By that I mean that bolting them face to face with the inner and outer races touching applies the correct preload. If there are inner and outer spacers between the bearings, they're usually ground together so they're the same length. I think I'd be inclined to add a wavy washer and a spacer to apply preload to that tail bearing. Without that, it's no wonder it's rattling around. Hi Roger, I have found 3 thou. end float on the shaft, so there is something wrong. When the weather is warmer I will pull the machine out so that I can remove the motor as that was also noisy, I will strip the head down wash the new grease out and then make some measurement to find out what is wrong. I will take some photo's of the assembly stripped down so you can see how the layout. There are several variant of the Eagle surface grinder and over the years different places of manufacture. There is some info on lathes.co. , but there were not any service manuals. Thanks for your in put it is much appreciated. Regards John.
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Post by Roger on Jan 31, 2022 21:42:36 GMT
Hi John, The taper roller bearings sound right, the spacer on the shaft should be ground to give the right preload. On most preloaded bearings, they're sold as matched pairs and the preload is built into the bearing. By that I mean that bolting them face to face with the inner and outer races touching applies the correct preload. If there are inner and outer spacers between the bearings, they're usually ground together so they're the same length. I think I'd be inclined to add a wavy washer and a spacer to apply preload to that tail bearing. Without that, it's no wonder it's rattling around. Hi Roger, I have found 3 thou. end float on the shaft, so there is something wrong. When the weather is warmer I will pull the machine out so that I can remove the motor as that was also noisy, I will strip the head down wash the new grease out and then make some measurement to find out what is wrong. I will take some photo's of the assembly stripped down so you can see how the layout. There are several variant of the Eagle surface grinder and over the years different places of manufacture. There is some info on lathes.co. , but there were not any service manuals. Thanks for your in put it is much appreciated. Regards John. Hi John, That explains a lot. Here's a page that shows the various arrangements, and I'd expect the bearings to be in the directions shown in figure 4m ie so that an load on the shaft loads up the bearing next to the end you're pressing from. I suppose it's possible that the bearings might have been fitted the wrong way round. If not, you can either shim the centre spacer to give a couple of tenths preload, or make a new spacer that's longer. You really don't need much preload because the bearings are really stiff. It does appear that quite a few spindles have the Deep groove bearing just floating without any preload. Personally, I think that's horrible, and is likely to make it less stable. A light preload with a wavy washer is a better option in my opinion.
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RGR 60130
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Post by RGR 60130 on Feb 1, 2022 10:12:46 GMT
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Feb 1, 2022 17:39:22 GMT
Hi Reg, yes I have seen that one the other day while searching for information on mine. However that is a mark 3 and mine is a mark 2 I also found on YouTube a man who had bought a Mk1, that had problems in his part three is where he explains about the bearings as he refits them. He goes as Jon's workshop hope this link works. www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hAEHnLYE8YIn his video he explains that his bearings are the other way round to the way they are described in Lathes.co.uk and there description could incorrect as there is no way they would fit as described. Now my machine the bearings the two races in the front and the deep grooved ballrace at the back, it is locked on the shaft but the 2 inch bore in the back of the casting goes all the way through. 01.02.22 by John The Pump, on Flickr I bought this machine many years ago from the widow of a club member. I don't know where he bought it, but I do know that he never even switched it on as he had broken the wheel getting it into his workshop and it was still broken when I acquired it. So I now intend to approach the repair with an open mind and not take it for granted that is as built. John.
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Post by RGR 60130 on Feb 3, 2022 10:05:21 GMT
All interesting stuff John - a lot of variations. I spoke to a Castrol Technical Rep about which grease to use instead of the obsolete Spheerol AP1 and he told me to use Spheerol EPL 1 instead.
Reg
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johnthepump
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Post by johnthepump on Feb 4, 2022 18:48:47 GMT
Hi Roger, I have found 3 thou. end float on the shaft, so there is something wrong. When the weather is warmer I will pull the machine out so that I can remove the motor as that was also noisy, I will strip the head down wash the new grease out and then make some measurement to find out what is wrong. I will take some photo's of the assembly stripped down so you can see how the layout. There are several variant of the Eagle surface grinder and over the years different places of manufacture. There is some info on lathes.co. , but there were not any service manuals. Thanks for your in put it is much appreciated. Regards John. Hi John, That explains a lot. Here's a page that shows the various arrangements, and I'd expect the bearings to be in the directions shown in figure 4m ie so that an load on the shaft loads up the bearing next to the end you're pressing from. I suppose it's possible that the bearings might have been fitted the wrong way round. If not, you can either shim the centre spacer to give a couple of tenths preload, or make a new spacer that's longer. You really don't need much preload because the bearings are really stiff. It does appear that quite a few spindles have the Deep groove bearing just floating without any preload. Personally, I think that's horrible, and is likely to make it less stable. A light preload with a wavy washer is a better option in my opinion. Hi Roger, The link hasn't worked for me, I have now stripped the head down again and tried running them in the lathe with preload and they are all very noisy. So I'm going to replace them, the good news is that I moved the machine out to access the noisy motor I noticed it had grease nipples so a shot of grease in each and the motor runs quietly. John.
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