First experience of 3D

[suctionhose]

Over Christmas, it isn’t prudent to bash rivets, machine metal or be otherwise productive in any way, so I “made” my first 3D Model.

By means to better understand and appreciate what 3D modellers are doing and why, I downloaded Fusion 360 and produced a model of a prominent feature required for the 1880’s Fowler Ploughing Engines my friend and I are building in 3” Scale.

Here is my story:

The item is about 235mm long, hollow in the back and having a section through the arch about 15mm x 28mm. Previously, being a “Traditionalist” I would have manually cut the letters out of 16g brass and silver soldered them to the main body, which would have been band sawed and milled to shape. Nowadays, I might have had the letters laser cut instead or possibly forked out to have them engraved (with background machined way leaving letters proud which is time consuming and expensive)

Either way, there's a couple of days work involved. As I need two off this time (for two engines) there was reason enough to dabble in 3D and see if a pair of nice sand castings would result.

Firstly, acknowledging that I had to learn how, the Model took A LOT OF TIME. I found I had to sort out the shape in 2D Cad first because “sketching” in 3D is quite difficult and slow to work with. The process went something like this: Scale photographs – 2D shape - check on engine – modify until happy – lay out text – adjust dimensions and text positions numerous times and finally use the 2D dimensions for “sketches” in Fusion 360 to generate the Model (which took a long time too especially putting draft on all the letters).

The various sketches were extruded into bodies – you really need to plan what to sketch and which plane to work on…. I had a 4 different attempts to establish “a workable methodology” - you probably get used to it with practice – the text went backwards because of the plane I chose – redo it again – adding draft to text is tedious and time consuming (Maybe I was doing it incorrectly but WOW, there’s A LOT of help forums about “Trouble with Font in 3D”!

Anyway, after DAYS of staring at the screen not blinking, Version 34 of this simple part emerged and was declared “ready for production”.

At this point I began to think more deeply about the likely steps from Model to Metal. Naively, my concept was “3D print a PLA pattern” for a sand casting (first preference) or a wax for investment casting (because a web search will quickly locate a “Prototyping Company where one off’s from your STL file are entirely normal”! (Is that sufficiently dripping with sarcasm? Perhaps not…)

Seems the 3D Print / Investment Cast industry is really aimed at the jewellery industry where they’re trying to rob the Jeweller of his or her craft and render them “a designer” rather than perpetuate the craft they supposedly practice … Anyway, being a designer is soo much nicer than getting all dirty with that yukky wax and stuff... (Was there enough sarcasm that time?)

So rejection from that quarter on all sides both here and abroad based on size alone. One last shot was a Company 1000kms distant that “Specialised in One offs and Prototypes”. (Here’s me thinking, how can make any money doing that?)

Well actually, they only do “One offs and Prototypes” if you want to proof your production run before giving them an order for 1000’s more which by the way you are going to remunerate them for the One Off cost a hundred times over – Well yeah, I can see how you could make some money doing that!!!)

Conclusions:
I used to wander into a foundry with a bit of wood and get a one off done for a few dollars in the hand. Heck, we used cast gunmetal at home practically for free!

Traditional methods have been systematically eradicated “to cut costs” and replaced by technology that is a “free download”. But it requires the services of a Company having a significant investment in fancy equipment. How can that “cut costs?” It’s just accountants playing games….

The 3D technology is fantastic. It will empower fertile minds to “create” without limitations of geometry or available processes. More variety than ever in design is possible, ‘nicer’ aesthetics, without those boring old engineers “dragging creative talent down with their realities”.

This experience though, clearly demonstrates to me that traditional skills; foundries, machine shops and most other forms of manufacturing are sadly missed. The new technology is not a substitute. It compliments certainly. It expands the range of possibility.

Of course, the 'new' will dominate because it’s NEW. Clean too. And trendy and easy to get creative by clicking your phone. Using 3D with a specific outcome in mind is a skill in its own right – no doubt about that - and the work by people on this site is tremendous as is the ability to see it from anywhere on Earth!

But I dunno… I might knock up a simple pantograph and use the $80 Dremel….

[r707]

Hi Ross -
Long-time and now far-off Aussie admirer of your work - congratulations on your first 3D model; its an impressive start and I hope you got a lot of satisfaction out of it after all the frustration learning new CAD software.

You're confronting a common issue where 3D printing + invest casting is at => ie. a large part with some details (text) and only QTY 1 or 2 off required making pattern-making and production costs unjustifiable.

I'd be happy to assist you in finding a cost-effective solution; my first thought is to produce the lettering on a backing plate (word-by-word via direct wax print / invest cast in brass) that can then be sweated to the arched frame (a fabrication from hand or lasercut pieces of brass or steel).

Until 3D printing costs drop further, a "combination approach" will be the model engineers best friend for large scale parts for some time yet :-)

kind regards,
~ Phil

email: philip.monsbourgh (@) gmail . com

[itchyballs]

sorry ross too long for me, do not have enough height in the burnout oven to mould that big. if you could figure out a way to do it in two halves somehow might be able to help. longest i can do is about 6 inches. i will measure the internals tomorrow and might be able to cast it flat in a special fixture.

[itchyballs]

Jan 10, 2017 16:32:00 GMT itchyballs said:

sorry ross too long for me, do not have enough height in the burnout oven to mould that big. if you could figure out a way to do it in two halves somehow might be able to help. longest i can do is about 6 inches. i will measure the internals tomorrow and might be able to cast it flat in a special fixture.

just had another thought. if you like i can always mill it on the cnc. PM for contact details.

[suctionhose]

I want to sincerely thank both gentlemen for their immediate offers to help out. I hadn't anticipated such generosity!

Truth is I'm not "stuck" by any means. I have traditional skills and equipment.

That's rather the point actually. I'd only be stuck if I pooh poohed old ways and blindly followed modern trends.

There's a number of JOHN FOWLER markings required in various locations on the models. I'll give more thought to a holistic solution possibly making blocks of text as Phil suggests and soldering them on.

Thank you again for the kind offers to help out. I will contact you privately in coming days.

Cheers

[abby]

Hi Ross , your casting would be too big for my largest lost wax flask which is 12" high and 6" diameter ,this inside motion frame for a 5" gauge "Castle" is about 9" overall including sprues.



However your part is very simple and would easily sand cast so where's the problem ?
If you really did want an investment casting then there are several foundries in the UK using ceramic shell that could easily accomodate the size and even cast in steel if required.
Most of the UK foundries now have partners in China who would be pleased to do your casting in iron.
Another solution is that used by foundries to produce larger investment castings such as sculptures , the wax pattern is surrounded with plaster re-inforced with chicken wire , no flask is required.

[suctionhose]

That's a complicated shape! A lot of work to fabricate the old way too!

Do you have to include the sprues in your 3D or are they added manually somehow afterwards?

[Roger]

Hi Ross,
You've really surprised me by giving this a go. I think you've picked one of the more tricky things to do as a first job, text is a pain in the neck. It certainly is a steep learning curve, but you've taken a huge step to achieve what you've done and I heartily congratulate you!

[abby]

Hi Ross , it is not necessary to include the sprues in the drawing , the foundry will sprue the wax pattern to suit their casting system.
I use ViaCad 2D/3D by Punch software for my drawings , when I started there was very little available for Macintosh but I have found ViaCad incredibly easy to use and by following an initial tutorial I was producing 3D drawings after just 1/2 hour , several years later I am still learning things I didn't know though .
As with any job there is always another way to accomplish the same end.

Text is very easy in ViaCad ,create the spline for the path , attach the text after choosing font and size , then extrude the text to the depth required



On this Merchant Navy tender axle box the hexagon nuts are about 1 mm AF, at the time this was about the limit for 3D print quality although it is even better now.

[suctionhose]

My choice of Fusion 360 was prompted by a turntable discussion at the club. "Free to hobbyists"...

It's an Auto desk product for which there often seems to be more user friendly alternatives.

Help forums recommended importing the text from another graphic design software called () Which I didn't do BTW.

For my hobby I WANT to make things by hand. The beauty of old machinery is that it was hand made. A human accomplishment that reasonates with me. I'm just walking the same journey in a more manageable size. I really prefer to keep modern ways out of it.

At the same time, I live in the modern world and work in today's industry so utilizing new ways to do things is a separate matter altogether. Although, the two overlap a little - when I let them!

[jasonb]

My thoughts would be to get the outside shape waterjet cut, you can use part of your existing 3D model for that just leaving out the lettering and recessed area. Then find someone with a CNC mill/router and get the lettering done, with a small enough cutter you will get minimal radius on the internal corners.

Its a good first effort, things will only get easier as you use the package more. I'm surprised you can't easily add draft to the letters I can do it all with one click in Alibre.

[Donald G]

I am very interested to note your comment about "free to hobbyists" I have looking at the freebies that are about. I can use 2D CAD and have for years, but I am struggling to learn any of the free 3D programs. I will try and get logged onto their site and see if they will accept me.

Thanks for the 'heads up' on this
Donald

[suctionhose]

Jan 12, 2017 21:01:00 GMT Donald G said:

I am very interested to note your comment about "free to hobbyists" I have looking at the freebies that are about. I can use 2D CAD and have for years, but I am struggling to learn any of the free 3D programs. I will try and get logged onto their site and see if they will accept me.

Thanks for the 'heads up' on this
Donald

[suctionhose]

Predictably, the free registration area on the Fusion 360 download site is not easy to locate. Google "how to,,," and people tell you how!

[suctionhose]

Jan 12, 2017 11:23:51 GMT jasonb said:

I'm surprised you can't easily add draft to the letters I can do it all with one click in Alibre.

I may have made a bigger job out of it through lack of experience. It's usually better to do a course with a group of people than self tutoring. You pick up a lot from the people around you and asking questions

[atgordon]

Fusion 360 is not free unless you are a student or an educator (or in my case a retired educator). There was recent unlimited lifetime offer for $300 (I think that was the cost). That was a very good deal given what Fusion 360 offers now and with much more to come in the future. You now get 30 days for free (well, in the US), and thereafter there is an annual fee for the level 1 ($300) and Ultimate ($1500).

F360 is a very good 3D package, easy to use and powerful. I have used Autocad in the past for 2D and 2 1/2 D. I tried Solidworks but it was too complex for my needs, so went back to Autocad until someone pointed me towards F360 about 6 months ago.

Since I have CNC mill capability, I was interested to see if F360 would post process as well as MasterCAM. It certainly seems to do so so far, although the Posts generated are considerably longer than MC programmes. I'm lucky, I have access to a MC setup whenever I need to develop a post file at a local machine shop that lets me hang out near their drops box (if I had to pay, it would cost me $37,000 for the full 4 axis system software per seat per annum! - I could buy a Haas VMC for the annual software license fee cost).

F360 is a very good CAM package, and is beginning to develop some interesting FEM stuff too (you too can test a 72" BFB wheel against a 72" Greasley design, all in the comfort of your home ...). The 2D drawing output is still not its strongest point: it is OK but the annotation and other features you expect from Autocad are still missing (they do promise it will get better).

My 2p's (or 2c's) worth: I'm guessing that are positioning F360 as a 3D Solidworks lite + MasterCAM package for industrial CAM users who do not need all the bells and whistles of SW, and want to move from the immensely powerful + VERY EXPENSIVE archaic looking MasterCAM (to help you get a picture, imagine the 1985 Microsoft MS-DOS team producing their version of photoshop - that's what the "latest" version of MC looks like!) to something much cheaper and easier to use.

The F360 online interactive training (yes, you can interact with the trainer) classes are free and excellent. The F360 forum is great and helpful.

And if anyone wants BA and ME thread forms for F360, let me know, I have uploaded files for both nuts and bolts for both forms (32 and 40 tpi for the ME).

[atgordon]

Jan 12, 2017 21:39:32 GMT suctionhose said:

Jan 12, 2017 11:23:51 GMT jasonb said:

I'm surprised you can't easily add draft to the letters I can do it all with one click in Alibre.

I may have made a bigger job out of it through lack of experience. It's usually better to do a course with a group of people than self tutoring. You pick up a lot from the people around you and asking questions

I did see a tutorial showing how to add a logo to a face in F360 ... I think the text has to be converted to SVG format first. There are a lot of PNG/JPG to SVG format converters out there. I'd post the question on the F360 design forum ... I have found it a Godsend.

Post you question here for a lot of help: forums.autodesk.com/t5/design-validate-document/bd-p/124

They are really patient with old geezers like me!

Tony

[suctionhose]

If you search "F360 for hobbyists" there's a lot of banter about the "free-ness". US may differ from other parts.

With so much software available these days, open source too, it's a different marketing exercise from even 5 years ago. (My wife works in this field)

Success of digital products relies on rapid uptake and grabbing market share as fast as possible. Hence free offers of highly functional packages.

At home most of us will only ever take up a free or super low cost licences. The hope would be that a collective knowledge of the brand will drive the purchase of "pro" licences or influence a decision at work on what to buy. Seems a sensible marketing strategy to me.

From some posts above I sense the "computer" interest supersedes the "metalworking" interest. For many people, building models is just a vehicle for playing with computers and new techniques. Nothing wrong with that of course. But it's a different interest to mine!

[Donald G]

Thanks for the additional information. I will try to get a copy when I get time.

[atgordon]

Jan 13, 2017 3:20:55 GMT suctionhose said:

From some posts above I sense the "computer" interest supersedes the "metalworking" interest. For many people, building models is just a vehicle for playing with computers and new techniques. Nothing wrong with that of course. But it's a different interest to mine!

I'm sure that in a pub a long time ago, the finest horse carriage makers who had evolved the most amazing suspensions systems based on innovative design using a balance between a slightly dished wheel, hand profiled ash spokes and banded rims that offered the most comfortable ride of the time (all without the intervention of any scholarly types telling them how things worked), looked at the London Times and asked "Who is this Henry Muadsley and his lathe, or the upstart, Whitworth and his threads, we don't need there sorts round here spoiling what we do ... they're just playing with metal machines and not doing anything useful for us. They'll tire of it and get back to using hand tools soon enough."

A computer is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. Each tool has its place. To see Baggo's 3D CAD design of a s/simplex blast pipe kordina based on Wardale's drawings is a work of art, and not something I could think about or replicate without a computer. And then to be able to machine the parts that make the blast pipe assembly, something which have been really difficult using traditional small shop model engineering tools, using a CNC mill really feels like a major accomplishment.

And you are right, we are all at different places, with different skills, resources and interests. The role of the computer in our lives and what it can do will vary accordingly. As a retired 68 year old engineer, I could not do without my computer anymore than I could without my over the yard arm beer at 5:00PM each day! I'm not using the computer all day like the kids with their phones, but I use it for ME stuff for an hour or so most days.

(What I do find extraordinary is that Greenly, Lawrence, Evans and possibly Ewins did all of what they did without a computer!)

(pps: there are a number of treatises trying to work out how the "hand and eye" craftsmen evolved answers that were perfect engineering solutions when tested many years later. The dished wheel used on the light carriage is such an example.)