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Post by atgordon on Jan 21, 2017 16:16:27 GMT
... Very slow internet in Australia makes this sw a pain to use! Forgot to mention that you can force F360 to work "off-line" which may help. In the top right corner where it shows you login name, click the down arrow, and then click on Work Offline. |
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peteh
Statesman
Still making mistakes!
Posts: 755
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Post by peteh on Jan 22, 2017 8:57:14 GMT
... Very slow internet in Australia makes this sw a pain to use! Forgot to mention that you can force F360 to work "off-line" which may help. In the top right corner where it shows you login name, click the down arrow, and then click on Work Offline. Tony - You're a legend mate! Possibly the best possible hint you could have given me.  Thanks also for the PM - I'll try not to use the email too often  Pete |
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Post by atgordon on Jan 23, 2017 6:45:04 GMT
Tony - You're a legend mate! Possibly the best possible hint you could have given me. Pete When I get to Oz next year, you can buy me a pint! (though it might have to be a little further east ... maybe we can negotiate) |
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peteh
Statesman
Still making mistakes!
Posts: 755
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Post by peteh on Jan 24, 2017 7:29:44 GMT
I've brothers in QLD - they can buy |
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Post by atgordon on Jan 26, 2017 3:22:56 GMT
I've brothers in QLD - they can buy Deal! I'll be in touch! |
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Post by runner42 on Feb 8, 2017 6:38:25 GMT
Tried to install F360 but it requires a 64 bit OS which I don't have, so I tried FreeCAD that is still under development and sometimes a bit flaky but overall a useful 3D program. I needed to dedicate some time on the tutorials because it is not intuitive. I have reached entry level proficiency by developing a number of mechanical items and my first solo attempt is a locomotive wheel. The overall aim is to develop a complete steam locomotive, but this begs the question is it developed from the get go or is it that the various individual items are produced as single files and then at some stage integrated into the complete locomotive?
Brian
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
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Post by jasonb on Feb 8, 2017 7:46:39 GMT
I would do them all as separate components, then sub assembles and then a final assemble. Eg do all the parts for the cylinder, assemble them in a file called "cylinder assembly " and then assemble that assembly to the main assembly.
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 8, 2017 10:03:14 GMT
With due respect Jason, as simple as that sounds, to those whom have never used this stuff before, it makes no sense at all!
From this venture into the unknown, I have renewed appreciation of the complex shapes people are working on.
That said, to quote a well known DIY proponent, "you can know what others know"
I feel that statement sums up the difference between working a computer vs individual talent.
I've been watching a piano contest on YouTube. How I wish I could play like that! I tried and I know I can never reach that standard. I just do not have the ability.
The computer removes all individual talent and reduces it to simply "I know more than you do"
I think, in essence, this is the fundamental part of computers in model engineering that I shy at.
Jason, computer or no computer, you produce beautiful work. I have an equally high opinion of my own skills given a significant history of results both hobby and professionally.
Let me assure you, computers play no part in that. But I like to explore and that is why I started this thread.
Stay tuned. There are developments in respect to my original mission. Acknowledgement to those that have assisted outside of this forum.
Once tangible results are cradled in my hot little hand, further information will be made available.
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Post by atgordon on Feb 8, 2017 21:41:02 GMT
The computer removes all individual talent and reduces it to simply "I know more than you do" I think, in essence, this is the fundamental part of computers in model engineering that I shy at. I can sorta see where you are coming from if you are redrawing on a computer what has been drawn before on paper: there is very little creativity involved, although it does allow to solve the age old "drawing error" issue. On the super simplex, there are issues with the radius rod bracket and the slide bars attached to the bracket ... as drawn, they will not work! With 3D cad, you can see where the interference occurs (or just hit the interference analysis link!). In terms of creativity, I design and make pretty complex parts for a local luxury yacht builder. Without 3D CAD it would be a very tedious trial and error process to make the parts that to comply with the lofted surfaces that I have to attach to. I can create multiple designs quickly, and "what if" them against the master drawings from the company in a fraction of the time it would take me to draw in 2D CAD (or get the old drawing board out), followed by a lot of cardboard template manipulation to work out the developed flat surfaces, which then has to be put into Mastercam for machining. Am I a maestro? Nowhere near ... more like you on the piano, but I get the job done quickly and with a sprinkling of creativity! |
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 8, 2017 23:47:46 GMT
Thanks for those remarks Tony!
We need to be mindful that we are talking about the same thing when there's disagreement.
Creation of a new shape using whatever means is "creating".
Reproducing an existing part to scale, even 1:1, is not "conceptual" although a new part is "created".
If you sit in a CAD course pretty much everyone will draw the bicycle (for example) but how many could design a bicycle much less make the parts of the bicycle themselves.
Full credit for original ideas. More credit still to people with the individual skill to make it reality.
Point was that the computer brings a means to an end for people that do not possess the hand skills required to make it themselves.
Many do but choose the computer because they want to. Personal choice. No discredit for doing so.
I admire individual talent be it second languages, music, singing, filing, flagging plate whatever.
What separates one person from another is some can, some can't and some do it better than others.
Computers are a great equaliser which is a great enabler for the population at large. All good. Personally I want to compete with myself and others on MY ability not how well I know which button to press.
Provocative?!!
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Post by atgordon on Feb 9, 2017 1:58:37 GMT
Computers are a great equaliser which is a great enabler for the population at large. All good. Personally I want to compete with myself and others on MY ability not how well I know which button to press. Provocative?!! Not one bit provocative! As an C&G apprentice and B.Sc engineer, I cut my teeth doing everything the way that it had been done from the time of Whitworth and Arkwright. I served my time, and I still question how a CNC mill "takes up" the slack, when I've been trained to take up the slack in the direction of the cut as you set cut depth ... (ball screws apparently). I always want my work to be the best. I have never thought about competing against others, but I love the fact that 3D CAD and linked CAM tools allow me to create things I couldn't have done without very complex setups in very short order. I know how to do all the manual setups, but CAD/CAM makes it so much easier (I haven't used my 12" rotary table in years - although I do use my old 1945 B&S No. 9 dividing head regularly since I don't have a 4th axis system!). It's not knowing which button to press, but knowing how to get a machine to do what you want, whether manually or computer controlled. CAD/CAM is no less rigorous than a manual system. You only get to press a button on either system at the end of a long process of designing, planning, fixturing and material setup. In the end, there ain't much difference since it is all about getting what you have in your head out of a machine. CAD/CAM might be able to do all sorts of wonderful things when creating complex parts, and is a lot faster for repetitive work, but isn't magic dust. You need the same basic machining skills, and the knowledge of how this part is made manually before you then put your ideas into a computer system, and use the output to drive a machine (well, for me anyway!). I'm sure we are all trying to do the same thing, enjoy our craft, but in a variety of ways: I'm guessing there is no right way! Each to their own. |
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
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Post by jasonb on Feb 9, 2017 7:51:31 GMT
I think there is a need to differentiate between using a 3D package to design something and the other option of then using that 3D design to make the part.
99% of what I do in CAD is used for design rather than using the drawing board. Only 1% of that may go further to maybe generate some co-ordinates for machining an odd shape or having a part laser or water jet cut. So that means '.m using 99% traditional methods to make parts so the Machining tallent is still needed. Infact as most of what I draw are original models or fully detailed ones from maybe just a general arrangement or photo then there is probably more tallent needed than just working to a published design.
A couple of years ago I felt much the same way as you Russ, prefered to use my drawing board and had not got on well with a couple of 2D packages I had tried. But I tried Alibre and liked what I was able to produce during teh trioal period so went on to use the tutorials and tought myself how to use it, I'm not fully proficient but I can do what I want with it. Its just another tool to learn to use, I could say I need to learn how to TIG weld because at teh moment I can't but if I learn to do it would that mean I have less tallent than the next man? I should say I have no engineering background like many here so in a way all the processes used to make a modelk I have had to learn and CAD is just one of them
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 9, 2017 12:47:50 GMT
Thanks for that Jason.
Apollo Astronaut, Charlie Duke said, "My father was born the same year the Wright Brothers first flew. He could hardly believe that we went to the moon. But to my son Tom, 8 yrs old, it was like so what?"
It is all relative. At age 55, I'm raising an 8 yr old from my second marriage. Everything is a click away. " Dad, just download the app..."
How can people imagine what it was to fire weld a spring buckle if they have never so much as banged in a nail? How can they say "Wow, that's worth saving. Can you believe somebody actually made that?"
I cling to traditional skills because they epitomise people. People live on in the hammer marks they left behind. I've climbed the Sydney Harbour Bridge several times both legally and before it was, to marvel at the human achievement. I'm fascinated by modern construction too but before the digital age things we humans created were direct, raw examples of human skill. You see the hammer blows, the file marks...
The whole attraction to hundred year old engines is that that people made them. I want to find that feeling in myself. You know, I went to Antarctica because I wanted to feel the ice, hear it crack and wonder what it was like to be stuck there for a winter. You can't feel it by reading books.
I suppose if my hobby was defined - as it must be for some - by exploring computer design / manufacture then I'd be singing a different tune. My hobby is defined by wanting to experience the building of a machine using much the same hand skills that were used to build the prototype. For me that is the journey.While perfectly good wheels can be purchased from the hardware for $30, I choose to spend 50 or 60 hours banging 1200 rivets in one by one. Nothing could rob me of that opportunity!
As we spoke about earlier, it comes down to the essence of the individual's motivation. "Why do you want to do it?" There are many, many motivations in model Engineering which is it's strength really. Diversity.
A friend, not trained in metal trades, loves milling. He has no interest in boilermaking or riveting but he will mill all weekend long if he can. That is his primary motivation. Model engines provide the opportunity to mill some lovely and challenging pieces. You'd never finish model by milling alone. What's the expression? "A man cannot live on bread alone"
The point of differentiation between my friend and I is that I "mill for the model" and he "models for the milling". I think that, in itself, is rather interesting really......
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Post by bambuko on Feb 9, 2017 16:35:59 GMT
...difference between working a computer vs individual talent... What a lot of cobblers. Working on a computer requires skill, knowledge and experience, working with your hands (even when using machines) requires skill knowledge and experience. ...The computer removes all individual talent and reduces it to simply "I know more than you do"... What a lot of nonsense... If this was the case than any monkey in front of the computer could produce amazing designs. and... what's wrong with "knowing more than you do"  Sounds like you have some peculiar chip on your shoulder with regards to computers? |
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,774
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Post by uuu on Feb 9, 2017 18:31:54 GMT
The problem with the piano is that the operator is just reading the notes that someone else has written on the page and pressing the buttons on the machine so the music comes out. Doesn't sound too hard to me.
Wilf
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Post by runner42 on Feb 9, 2017 21:59:44 GMT
Hi Ross,
you appear to be greatly in touch with your emotions and are articulate to express them well, try writing a book.
Brian |
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 9, 2017 22:21:36 GMT
The problem with the piano is that the operator is just reading the notes that someone else has written on the page and pressing the buttons on the machine so the music comes out. Doesn't sound too hard to me. Wilf Smart come back! Nice twist! There were pianos and pianolas. They look the same. They sound the same. One fills concert halls and the other, anyone can pedal... Look, I've made no accusations. I like Green. If someone wants to argue that Green is really modified Blue, therefore Blue must be better, then go ahead. Here, I enjoy Green. I'm trying Blue. It doesn't do much for me. I can certainly see why people go for Blue. Will I trade Green for Blue? No thanks. That is my educated choice in terms of my model making. Outside that scope, with different outcomes in mind, Blue might be my choice. I'll weigh that on it's merits at the time. Re "my computer chip": You're right. I dislike them. I'm not alone in that. I use them because I have to. There are things they do well and things they don't. Not so much the computer itself - more in the way people apply them. So to focus my disdain on the computer is unfair. I should direct my wrath at some web designers, managements, etc Anyway, I've laboured the point far too long. I hope some of the silent majority of forum readers have paused for a soliloquy or two. Doesn't matter... |
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Post by atgordon on Feb 10, 2017 1:07:57 GMT
Anyway, I've laboured the point far too long. I hope some of the silent majority of forum readers have paused for a soliloquy or two. Doesn't matter... Amen! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 5:38:58 GMT
I can see where Ross is coming from, 3D printing is replacing the skill of the pattern maker, CNC milling machines/lathes are replacing the skilled machinist. I served my time as a Toolmaker back in the 1980's and have seen massive changes, friends still in the industry tell me apprentices today are severely lacking in the hand skills required, I blame the apprenticeship itself not the lads but hey ho time moves on.
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
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Post by jasonb on Feb 10, 2017 8:06:03 GMT
I too can see where Ross is comming from but why rule out CAD just because you like MAKING things the traditional way, after all it does stand for Computer Aided DESIGN. There is no reason anyone who likes to work metal has to use their CAD package to pysically produce parts which is really CAM Computer Aided MACHINING. About 18 months ago I was offered a Sieg CNC machine for long term load and no cost to me, I was in two minds to take up the offer but in the end decided to stick to manual machining as I too like twiddling handwheels and even though I'm not so keen on sheet metal work still get a satisfied feeling having made something by hand.
I suspect many here maybe Ross included have DROs on their machines, CAD is a bit like putting a DRO on your drawing board and just another tool in the design stage. I doubt many of those would take their drawing board into the workshop so the CAD can also be left there if you wish.
Ross if you are still reading I would be interested to know that if those two ploughing engine casting sets had come with cad drawings would you have turned your nose up at them?
J
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