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Post by suctionhose on Feb 10, 2017 10:07:51 GMT
Jason, Still listening. Odd question. Not sure the angle. However, the answer is it would make no difference.
I'm the same as you. I work in 2D CAD at home and at work. The PE's have been an opportunity to practice CAD. Obviously there are advantages for transmitting drawings to Jim across town.
I purchased a box of materials, castings in particular, for something not likely to be available ever again. It was an opportunity purchase.
You get what you get and hope the value is there. The castings, rims and boiler materials are all being used. The shafts, gears and a few castings are scrap. C'est la vie.
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by jasonb on Feb 10, 2017 10:18:15 GMT
Jason, Still listening. Odd question. Not sure the angle. However, the answer is it would make no difference. Thats my point 3D CAD can be used as a design tool only and you can still make everything the way you want to without diluting the tallent needed to MAKE things. But don't rule it out just because you think that 3D CAD means the parts have to be CNCed, laser cut, water jet cut, printed etc. Even when used purely for design the person using it needs to know how a steam engine works and what can physically be made which is much like your bike design comparrison. BTW I did design my own bike frame and have it made though that was a wile ago so done on paper and built by my Uncle who was a frame builder. J
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 10, 2017 20:50:02 GMT
Jason your reasoning is understood clearly. I'm no different.
Horses for courses. Adam Cro work is an ideal application. I often look and show others Adams photos. I want to know more about creating text. Later.
However, as I said earlier I can't see a single reason to draw a traction engine wheel.
I'm not making luxury yachts or jet engines. I'm replicating something made by people with hand tools 150 years ago.
A large part of my motivation is to experience that albeit on a more managable scale. I'm good with my hands. Don't want to give it up.
I thought people might be interested in a first experience by someone who does not swallow the latest fad hook line and sinker.
I see applications for the "tool". I may use it when it makes sense. I won't when it doesn't.
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Post by Cro on Feb 10, 2017 21:14:04 GMT
Happy to help where I can if people are ever interested. CAD is different for each person and how they want to apply it to their modelling. Some would rather just get on and make it others want to visualise it first and that is me. I do spend a lot of time designing patterns and moulds so I think the comment on the page before about lost skills is completely wrong. It has taken me almost 3 years to be as fluent with my CAD as I am and I learn new things all the time. A lot of thought goes into the way these items can be machined, printed or cast its not a simple process so although the hands on pattern making skills of the past are not used the thought process is very similar and in depth as it would have been "back in the day".
Each to their own with how and why they want to use it.
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 10, 2017 21:38:51 GMT
Adam, If anything, this technology has made the foundry relevant again.
Size and expense requires careful planning. Phil and Mike have contributed generously to my exercise.
For a sizeable sand casting if the pattern is to be made by printing then the model should be a thin walled shell of plastic.
Possibly support ribs, bosses for wood screws will need to be designed in so the pattern can be put on either side of a board and cast in the traditional way.
As I found in this first 3d experience it's not as simple as drawing the object and it's production ready.
I would value your advice on creating text sometime. For my purposes, some of the builders plates on my model lend themselves to investment casting. Others I plan to emboss in shim using a reverse engraving as a former.
More boiler work next.
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Post by mutley on Feb 11, 2017 0:03:40 GMT
You can design in 3D and then produce the parts. The. headstock and fork castings were modelled in Solidworks, then machined in polystyrene using CNC before being cast. The rolls have been modelled in Solidworks and then produced the traditional way. Modern technology being used both ways. Experience lets me work out what machining allowances are and where to put it.
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 11, 2017 2:23:48 GMT
Thank you Mutley. I am aware of poly patterns - I have the Patriot cylinder saved on my phone to show people.
Yet another good example of "appropriate use" and renewed foundry capability.
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 11, 2017 2:37:22 GMT
This thread has tracked its way back to the old (and very boring) slugging match between traditional and modern.
For further posts, please revisit page 1 to see what its about! Also page 4 where I did my damnedest to elaborate where I was coming from.
Thank you to the one or two that got over themselves and said fair enough!
So on account of this becoming a total waste of time now - something computers are excellent at - forgive me if I withdraw from any further comment.
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Post by atgordon on Feb 11, 2017 4:29:18 GMT
Thank you to the one or two that got over themselves and said fair enough! You just turbo charged it! This thread has never been about ego or being right, it was about folks trying out CAD to help them vision what they were doing, and those who have gone further down the path of 2D and 3D CAD and CAM adding their views on how we all use manual and computer tools to achieve our model engineering aims. I've tried to add constructively to the debate, and enjoyed sharing my humble attempt at showing how Fusion 360 works for those just getting into this world, and generally adding positive comments, as have many others. Got over myself ... sorry to say this, maybe it is you need to do so ;-) However, I do agree that we have flogged this horse enough: forum threads that run into more than a few pages rarely work well!
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Post by runner42 on Feb 11, 2017 6:03:29 GMT
I did find it strange that the opening post was to present a first experience in creating using a 3D program an item for a model which perhaps had to require a 3D file as a means of getting it cast and then went into a critique of the process of using 3D programs and comparing them to the old traditional ways of doing things. Perhaps suggesting that the new 3D program approach is diluting and removing the skills of the Model Engineer. I embraced the 3D program concept because it is a natural evolution from 2D CAD (read traditional drawings) and I had to become proficient in using 2D CAD because of the need to produced drawings for the club's BI of my boiler that had to be redrawn from LBSC's original to meet the AMBSC Code part 1 requirements. Using the traditional pencil and paper approach would have delayed the process of approval of the drawings considerably, firstly preparation time and transmitting them to the BI was easily accomplished by an attachment to an email. Why bother with 3D programs, well someday I may own a 3D printer and as Roger has shown that concepts can be readily produced and analysed and readily disseminated to third parties. He sees a 3D program usage as just another string to his bow, not replacing any skill set that he has had before 3D programs arrived.
At my age becoming familiar with using a 3D program is a small investment in time, I don't need to become a power user, it's surprising how little you need to know of the capabilities of the program to produce fairly complex items. The club talk is more and more related to 3D program usage so to engage in technical issues with my peers requires some knowledge of 3D programs. I was slow to embrace smart phones so I shan't been seen wanting in understanding and using 3D programs.
Brian
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,807
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Post by uuu on Feb 11, 2017 8:47:00 GMT
Talking of text. John the Pump uses a CAD/CAM program called V-carve Pro. It's particularly suited to to engraving, or relief-engraving using a vee shaped tool that comes to a point. So you can cut the sharp inner corners that a round tool can't do. It will lift the Z axis as it approaches the corner, so uses the very tip of the tool.
It also has a feature that allows you to start off with a normal end mill, and at will clear as much of the background as the radius of the tool will allow, before you switch to the pointy one.
This opens up the options on the text (or horse, leaves, anything) you want to model, as you can have serifs or other fancy features.
Wilf
PS this isn't so much 3D, more 2.5D
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Post by suctionhose on Feb 11, 2017 9:57:17 GMT
Talking of text. John the Pump uses a CAD/CAM program called V-carve Pro. It's particularly suited to to engraving, or relief-engraving using a vee shaped tool that comes to a point. So you can cut the sharp Thank you Wilf. I intended to speak with the engraver nearby to see what kind of file they can work from. They engraved stuff for me before from a picture.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2017 6:32:50 GMT
Not sure if this is the right place to say this but here goes. I have absolutely no issue with people using CAD, CAM, CNC Machines or even various forms of EDM. My problem is that as the use of 3D printing increases and more people produce wax patterns and pop off to the local foundry, are the current very short list of suppliers of castings going to find it increasingly difficult to survive? Having spoken to a gentleman at one of these suppliers he stated they have "no interest in CAD modelling and producing castings in this way" I personally think this is very short sighted and they will meet their demise in the not to distant future unless they move with the times. I can see people like Adam (who I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting) becoming the new generation of supplier.
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Post by Cro on Feb 13, 2017 8:22:27 GMT
Not sure if this is the right place to say this but here goes. I have absolutely no issue with people using CAD, CAM, CNC Machines or even various forms of EDM. My problem is that as the use of 3D printing increases and more people produce wax patterns and pop off to the local foundry, are the current very short list of suppliers of castings going to find it increasingly difficult to survive? Having spoken to a gentleman at one of these suppliers he stated they have "no interest in CAD modelling and producing castings in this way" I personally think this is very short sighted and they will meet their demise in the not to distant future unless they move with the times. I can see people like Adam (who I have not yet had the pleasure of meeting) becoming the new generation of supplier. My short answer to this would be no, the direct wax printing solution will never take over production for the traditional loco casting as it is not cost effective. A Dead scale pair of cylinder blocks in 5" for a BR Std Class 3 will cost you around £450 plus whereas the next equivilent on a quick search from one supplier shows a set of Don Young Class 2 cylinders, front & rear covers at £270. The wax printing one you get above the small detail casting gets very expensive and unless you desperatly want this on your loco then for 90% of the customers in the hobby it's not worth it. Use of 3D printed patterns to go for Sand casting is a way of updating current patterns but it's not typically the patterns at fault when you get a rough casting its normally down to the foundries. These tools are their to improve our models and devlop on what we already have not to eliminate the suppliers we already have. Doug Hewson has been doing this far long than I have and for some time using early rapid prototyping for some patterns and he has never wiped out the typical suppliers but worked along side them. I can see where you have come from on this one but do not fear we aren't taking over just yet Adam
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Post by mutley on Feb 13, 2017 8:33:00 GMT
My name engines name plate was engraved, I produced a simple DXF file and emailed it across. Much smaller and the original Winson models name plates and works plates were all engraved by a commercial engraver just around the corner from me. Pretty much anything is possible, the challenge is choosing the right technique to match your budget and aspirations.
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Post by Cro on Feb 13, 2017 9:01:58 GMT
Can do nameplates easy with the printer, a nice 3-5 degree draft on the text to giving some great strength at the base makes even the smallest text reliable! I have had our engraver do plenty of bits before, he does the Wimbeldon trophies and work for Royal Family, and even he said he couldn't do some of the bits we cast - this is where CAD and 3D printing comes into its own!
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abby
Statesman
Posts: 925
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Post by abby on Feb 13, 2017 13:45:51 GMT
The use of 3D CAD /printing/lost wax to produce castings is absolutely no threat whatsoever to current suppliers of traditional sand castings. Castings for the most popular models are already available so there is no incentive to re-invent these as lost wax at an increased price. Suppliers are exactly that and not metal founders , they will supply what is available and most already do have lost wax castings in stock. There are a few modellers who are willing to pay the cost of tooling in order to receive a high quality casting of a part which is presently unobtainable but in the 20 plus years that I have been involved in this business they have been rare. The way that we can compete with any production means is when the customer wants quantity of parts such as this or this and they can be cast like this It is often the case that when someone does pay for the tooling to produce a new "super" casting , exposure on forums such as this results in further orders , which goes someway to re-imbursing the original clients outlay.
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Post by suctionhose on Mar 9, 2017 12:04:48 GMT
For the sake of closure this is the end product. The text was investment cast from direct printed wax patterns. (by Mike in Auckland) By dealing with the text separately as four thin segments, the outlay for that detail was optimised. The steel arch was machined manually on the rotary table from 20mm plate. (It will be painted) I'm pleased with the result and grateful for assistance received. Turned out a to be an ideal combination of 3D and home machining.
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r707
Active Member
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Post by r707 on Mar 12, 2017 19:32:36 GMT
An excellent result Ross - And bonus points for hacking it out of 20mm plate - there's a few revs of the rotary table in that...! best regards, ~ Phil
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Post by suctionhose on Mar 12, 2017 20:45:33 GMT
An excellent result Ross - And bonus points for hacking it out of 20mm plate - there's a few revs of the rotary table in that...! best regards, ~ Phil Only took 8hrs to machine two off. Simple is often the best!
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