Columbian coal..... Thoughts?

[phild1]

All,

I burn mostly anthracite that i get from signal fuels in my 5" gauge ajax and this is a suitable fuel however has some annoying properties - such as it needs a high draught to burn happy yet tends to splinter when it hits the fire bed and then these small chips get pulled through and thrown out the chimney.

As bituminous house coals go, columbian seems to be best rated. Hot burning with little ash.

Has anyone any experience of this coal?

Phil, Sutton coldfield MES member

[mutley]

I don't and I would be interested to hear others thoughts. I was given Russian steam coal as an option at an event last year and found it very favourable. It catches quickly, burns very hot and leaves very little ash. Might be worth considering as an alternative.

[keith6233]

I have just this week been trying Colunbian and the results are excellent ,plenty of heat a little smoke when lighting up but after that seems smoke free .I paid £6.40 for 25 kg which is far cheaper than anthracite.

[phild1]

Hi both, thanks for replying... Great news you have used it successfully. Can i ask, did you use columbian exclusively or did you mix with anthracite? This is what i have considered trying. A mix of both - anthracite content for the heat and columbian bituminous for a higher flame.

[keith6233]

Mar 24, 2017 21:24:06 GMT phild1 said:

Hi both, thanks for replying... Great news you have used it successfully. Can i ask, did you use columbian exclusively or did you mix with anthracite? This is what i have considered trying. A mix of both - anthracite content for the heat and columbian bituminous for a higher flame.

Just Columbrian it seems to produce as much heat as anthracite the advantage is very easy to light up and you don't need to force the fire with the blower.

[92220]

Mar 24, 2017 20:25:45 GMT keith6233 said:

I have just this week been trying Colunbian and the results are excellent ,plenty of heat a little smoke when lighting up but after that seems smoke free .I paid £6.40 for 25 kg which is far cheaper than anthracite.

What colour is it........................................White? 

[jma1009]

Hi Phil,

Around 2002 when supplies of suitable UK steam coal were dificult to obtain I had some discussions with the main coal agent (not merchant) at Cardiff. One of the results was that I was given 2 50kg bags of Columbian coal then being imported into the UK via Cardiff docks.

We tried it out on a public running day on various locos in the Cardiff club. It burnt ok (not brilliant but ok) but produced dense black smoke. Most of us felt quite ill the next day.

Phil, you really ought to be using the welsh steam coal beans sold by Signal Fuels rather than their anthracite.

I personally would never use 'house coal' on a miniature loco with a silver soldered copper boiler, or even a steel boiler. The tar and soot and increased sulphur and lower BTU etc are all good reasons why not to.

Cheers,
Julian

[phild1]

Hi julian.. Thanks for your reply.

Unfortunately signal do not sell welsh steam coal in beans size. After an in depth discussion with the merchant it was explained that their grains and beans that they sell as welsh steam is actually anthracite and this comes from a site just down the road from foss y fran. They do sell foss y fran coal but this is only available in doubles and each time i have visited the yard it has been unavailable. Their 'welsh steam coal' is most definitely anthracite.

Regards

[jma1009]

Hi Phil,

That is a most interesting reply and now explains why the characteristics of Signal Fuel's 'welsh steam coal' behaves like 'hard' anthracite, as reported on here previously.

There is a list online of coal merchants who stock the Ffos y Fran coal, or ask your local traction engine club or preserved steam railway.

Cheers,
Julian

[phild1]

Thanks julian,

I actually think its a bit naughty of signsl fuels to advertise their coal as welsh steam coal when it is a hard anthracite. It is a good product however and burns very hot and clean, BUT, it is anthracite.

What do you think to the proposed mix i mentioned. Maybe 50 / 50, signals anthracite and a high qaulity (such as colombian) bituminous coal?

[smallbrother]

I worked on the opencast sites in the Ffos y Fran area and some of the seams at Ffos y Fran will be as near the properties of anthracite as makes little difference. The "official" anthracite seams begin just a few miles west of Ffos y Fran so unless you know which particular seam the coal came from it could slip from one category to another quite easily.

As for Columbian coal, that description will cover a vast range of qualities. Some will be very good, some awful.

If it works for you, go for it. Coal quality varies seam by seam. It also depends on the washing process where things can go wrong. You would be very fortunate to get the precise same quality suitable for miniature steam engines for years on end. The mining process doesn't work like that when you deal with raw coal. My advice is don't be afraid to swap about.

Pete

[steamcoal]

phild1

I have a reasonable knowledge of the Welsh fuels from a merchant/importer point of view having ordered 80 tonne for us down here.

There is a clear distinction between the two "Welsh's" anthracite and Dry Steam coal as you will know.

I have purchased from Signal the anthracite grains, beans small and large anthracite and always made it very clear as to the variety I needed and also in my advertising. The generic "Welsh" tripped people up as they called the whole lot Welsh Steam Coal but really they ment Welsh Anthracite. You will know that anthracite is widespread, Siberia, Poland, Columbian and of course Wales, the best! The distinction is just between Anthracite and Welsh Dry Steam Coal.

The reason for no beans in WDSC ( Welsh Dry) is that they lose too much material in the sizing process and prefer to keep the lumps as big as possible. It needs to the handled carefully as well.

I am aware of Columbian Anthracite being imported into the Uk for briquette manufacturing but really do not need to go there with trials.

I tell customers that engines were designed around Welsh Anthracite and really that is that. No need to reinvent the wheel in my thought.

Hayden

[smallbrother]

Mar 27, 2017 18:05:48 GMT steamcoal said:

phild1

I have a reasonable knowledge of the Welsh fuels from a merchant/importer point of view having ordered 80 tonne for us down here.

There is a clear distinction between the two "Welsh's" anthracite and Dry Steam coal as you will know.

I have purchased from Signal the anthracite grains, beans small and large anthracite and always made it very clear as to the variety I needed and also in my advertising. The generic "Welsh" tripped people up as they called the whole lot Welsh Steam Coal but really they ment Welsh Anthracite. You will know that anthracite is widespread, Siberia, Poland, Columbian and of course Wales, the best! The distinction is just between Anthracite and Welsh Dry Steam Coal.

The reason for no beans in WDSC ( Welsh Dry) is that they lose too much material in the sizing process and prefer to keep the lumps as big as possible. It needs to the handled carefully as well.

I am aware of Columbian Anthracite being imported into the Uk for briquette manufacturing but really do not need to go there with trials.

I tell customers that engines were designed around Welsh Anthracite and really that is that. No need to reinvent the wheel in my thought.

Hayden

Honestly Hayden, there is a very blurred line between Dry Steam Coal and Anthracite.

Depending who was buying it, we marketed as one or other. This was from the Bryn Pica opencast site on the hillside opposite my house.

Since most of the Ffos Y Fran coal is crushed for power station use I am not too sure on the keeping big lumps part either.

Pete.

[phild1]

Thanks all for your inputs and comments. Coal is such a variable thing that i think you just have to experiment and find a fuel that suits your particular loco.

As i said at the beginning i do use the signl fuels beans which are a good fuel but i end up with a smoke box full of unburnt chips due to the draught needed to burn it well and anthracite tendency to explode and fracture into tiny bits when it hits the fire.

I do have news on my experiment with columbian for anyone interested - i broke it up into suitable peices and washed and dried it. I mixed about 50 / 50 at the club on sunday and the loco was in steam for 4 1/2 hours with no ill effects. In fact, in my opinion it steamed better than normal. The coal burned with a light grey haze rather than a thick smog and at the end of the run there was no clinker and smoke box was about 2 inches deep with ash. The loco was making steam well all day and even at the end of the run with a few tubes gone it would still lift the safeties with use of the blower.

Not as filthy and stinky as i had imagined it might be. Loco is 5 inch ajax. 0-4-0


Thanks all

[smallbrother]

Mar 27, 2017 19:40:22 GMT phild1 said:

Thanks all for your inputs and comments. Coal is such a variable thing that i think you just have to experiment and find a fuel that suits your particular loco.

As i said at the beginning i do use the signl fuels beans which are a good fuel but i end up with a smoke box full of unburnt chips due to the draught needed to burn it well and anthracite tendency to explode and fracture into tiny bits when it hits the fire.

I do have news on my experiment with columbian for anyone interested - i broke it up into suitable peices and washed and dried it. I mixed about 50 / 50 at the club on sunday and the loco was in steam for 4 1/2 hours with no ill effects. In fact, in my opinion it steamed better than normal. The coal burned with a light grey haze rather than a thick smog and at the end of the run there was no clinker and smoke box was about 2 inches deep with ash. The loco was making steam well all day and even at the end of the run with a few tubes gone it would still lift the safeties with use of the blower.

Not as filthy and stinky as i had imagined it might be. Loco is 5 inch ajax. 0-4-0


Thanks all

Excellent news!

[jma1009]

A couple of points.

Pete (smallbrother) is an old friend and has substantial industry knowledge of welsh coal mining as a professional engineer. He is quite right to say that what you get may not be as described due to the way the FFos Y Fran open cast works are operated, and other operations in this area of South Wales.

What I can categorically say is that any fireman of a steam loco will be able to tell the difference! Both in the appearance and hardness of the coal lumps (of whatever size), and the way the coal burns.

When I started this lark, the IWMES used anthracite beans. Later it became 'soft' anthracite beans from Tower Colliery.

However 2 IWMES members used Welsh steam coal and had their own supplies of same. John deBank used stuff he acquired from the Ffestiniog and Talyllyn when a volunteer and visitor which was primarily excellent Lady Windsor Cobbles from Ynysbwll. Arthur Grimmett had a stock of an old trade name 'phurnod' which was for all intents and purposes exactly the same and indistinguishable from Lady Windsor Cobbles. Arthur's stock dated back to when he ran a commercial miniature steam railway at Sandown IOW in the 1950s and early 1960s. I still have some of it in my coal shed.

At the age of 16 I learnt/was taught how to fire miniature locos with the IWMES supply of anthracite beans, and the 'proper' Welsh steam coal. No need to say which I prefered! This is despite the Welsh steam coal being in fist sized lumps that needed breaking up with a hammer and seiving.

When you break a lump of Welsh steam coal you can hold the lump in your hand and tap it gently with a hammer in the right place and it parts into pieces easily.

Try doing this with a lump of anthracite! It wont be friable and will hurt your hand!

Hayden, you really must get your head round the terminology. This is old ground on here. No fullsize loco was ever designed to work on Welsh anthracite. It was far too expensive and of limited supply. Anthracite was never ever used on fullsize UK steam locos, except perhaps for the unfortunate incident in May 1964 with Pendennis Castle on a 'special' when the coal melted the firebars!

Cheers,
Julian

[steamcoal]

Julian.

I can certainly tell the difference between the anthracite and Welsh Dry, well the product I have received and sold anyway.They might be related technically but certainly to look at them and tap them they are very different.I am not questioning that at all.

I was not  considering the full size engines in the equation at all but I am sure if Signal are selling Welsh Dry as anthracite then something is up. How can they be mixed up, even with my meger sphere of knowledge they are physically dissimilar even thought closely related obviously as Pete says.

Pete, what is the "blurred line" based on? From the most basic characteristic being that's of what you can see and touch they seem poles apart.

Not trying to inflame the debate in any way chaps.

H

[jma1009]

Pete's 'blurred' line is in respect to what is dug out of the ground and sold on. The different coal seams merge at a geographical point plus further geological distortions that complicate matters. Modern open cast mining in South Wales is insusceptible to these changes, whereas deep mining via shafts was a completely different thing entirely.

Anthracite and Welsh steam coal are completely different as I have tried to describe. There is also a difference between 'dry' Welsh steam coal used primarily years ago for marine and Admiralty use, and loco Welsh steam coal. Ive used all over the years.

Cheers,
Julian

[steamcoal]

Julian.

There is lot of crossing of lines here. So really the sticking point is over the Welsh "Steam" steam coal and the Welsh "dry" steam coal.

I was never in any doubt between the anthracite and the Welsh "dry" steam coal but have not seen the Welsh "steam" steam coal which I think is what you use in your engines? Could I be correct?

Those to last ones(the two Welsh's) are obviously similarly related but that is the technical standpoint over which you and Pete have the upper hand in the knowledge.

So the big locos used what coal?

What coal were the miniatures designed around in the days of LBSC etc, etc?

Just trying to clear the air Julian.



HB

[Tony K]

Mar 27, 2017 18:39:54 GMT smallbrother said:

Honestly Hayden, there is a very blurred line between Dry Steam Coal and Anthracite.
Depending who was buying it, we marketed as one or other. This was from the Bryn Pica opencast site on the hillside opposite my house.... Pete.

Presume you have a good stock then Pete.
Prefer this kind of colombian myself....