Columbian coal..... Thoughts?

[smallbrother]

Hi Guys,

In the olden days a deep mine would only work a limited number of seams, maybe just one. This made the output of that mine more consistent.

Opencast mines work multiple seams. The Trecatty site, right next to Ffos Y Fran, was working 14 seams if I remember correctly. I imagine Ffos Y Fran will be doing similar. Some of the seams were very high ranking coal, getting towards anthracite classification, and properties. Some were s h i t!

There is no white line on the ground to show where anthracite begins. There is a transition zone several miles wide and I happen to live within that zone. Again, some seams are top quality, some not. Similarly, steam coal and bituminous are mingled geographically to some extent. The general rule for South Wales is that the rank starts low in the east and rises in a westerly direction.

I loved working in that industry. The technical challenges were immense. I may be old fashioned and out of step but whilst other parts of the world are using coal I think it is potty that we spurn a natural resource and all the jobs. I can't cost it but the social costs balance out the economics of British coal in my opinion.

I wasn't involved in the early days of model engineering so can't comment on what worked before. I would however reiterate that these days it makes sense to be flexible with what you use. I tend to buy enough bags to last a season - sometimes you can see a rise/drop in quality over 12 months from the same merchant.

Pete.

[smallbrother]

Duplicate post.

Tony's post distracted me!

Pete.

[Rex Hanman]

Prefer this kind of colombian myself....



Seems to work, I'm getting steamed up!

[steamcoal]

Maybe your Columbian dream could be all fake under what little she has ( on! ) probably all silicone and will not burn well. Maybe the first instance of Holy Smoke!

I think the initial post were really about the worth of a foreign ( Columbian )ANTHRACITE. Not sure how Welsh Steam coal go in on it but there was some mention about anthracite being sold and Welsh.

I am not trying to out do either Julian or Pete, just stating the very basic facts that I have gleaned. Having burnt both Welsh "Dry" and hard black Anthracite I attest to the difference. The technicality that Julian alluded to was that Welsh steam coal is obviously a variation and close to but slightly different from Welsh "Dry", and his favoured fuel. Well this is what I understand until correct from Julian next instalment.

Pete... know any good books to read on the subject?

If anything the hard black anthracite goes well in our locos so happy with what we have while we have it. Not as lucky as pete who can hop across the road with his shovel. I will take what comes out of the bag.

[steamcoal]

Pete.

What's the hot oil on the "Black Diamond" grade anthracite?

I have been asked to supply one tonne of small nut size to a miniature railway of this. What can you tell me if anything.

H

[phild1]

The columbian coal i have used is a bituminous house coal. I mixed this with anthracite from signal fuels to get the best of both fuels and this mix burned brilliantly and the loco repsonded well. The fire was more lively and responsive with the mix fuel rather than just anthracite alone.

Cheers all

[smallbrother]

Mar 28, 2017 9:29:18 GMT steamcoal said:

Pete.

What's the hot oil on the "Black Diamond" grade anthracite?

I have been asked to supply one tonne of small nut size to a miniature railway of this. What can you tell me if anything.

H

I have never heard of it Hayden. Any more info on it?

I learned all I know from the geologists and washery managers I worked alongside. I don't know any books.

Pete.

[steamcoal]

Well Pete from the information I have the C.V his higher than the group 1 Anthracites.

It maybe that the average C.V is higher or more defined in a narrower band of 32,000 rather than the 30,000 to 33,000Kj/kg for group one.

I have not had a reply back from my agent re my request.

It is obviously offered for sale, I have the data sheet, but its getting a bit picky for miniatures but if thats what they want then as they say...the customer is always right.Obviously it costs more too.

Not sure either but they want it by November.

HB

[smallbrother]

Is it a trade name Hayden? Certainly no grade of anthracite we dug was called that, and we dug the very best stuff in west Wales.

Pete.

[jma1009]

Hi Hayden,

Have a good look at the following thread on another forum, and in particular the excellent contributions of 'Aberdare'

www.national-preservation.com/threads/where-does-the-best-and-worst-coal-come-from.845303/page-2

As a miniature firebox burns coal in exactly the same way as full size, the comments of those involved in day to day running of preserved steam in the UK are of particular relevance.

The Welsh coal mining industry was very local and based on the local ironworks until 1844. London used Northumbrian coal for house fires brought down by sea. In 1844 Mountain Ash via John Nixon taped the 4ft coal seam at some depth. In those days until the mid to late 1850s steam locos in the UK burnt coke.

What started the Welsh coal industry? Contracts with the French Navy and Chilean Navy and ultimately the Admiralty for excellent quality steam coal with little smoke.

The whole of the Welsh steam coal mining developed around big contracts in the 19thC for coal for government contracts for Naval defence with various countries including the Admiralty.

An offshoot of this was that similar coal that wasnt quite up to Admiralty spec could be burned in GWR locos from the very late 1850s onwards when fire brick arches were introduced into loco boilers.

'Nixon's Navigation' and such other old trade names are part of Welsh culture.

The Admiralty spec was a fuel that fired the Naval warships of the period with as little smoke as possible, and that a bunker load would last a journey or trip. There was a Parliamentary investigation into this in the 1850s.

Due to the very high price of Welsh steam coal for it's superior quality and effect on demand verses supply of Naval contracts, other UK railways used coal that was cheaper and local without the tonnage per mile restrictions that were a feature of railway carriage for freight.

There were lots of very good seams of coal for steam locomotives in the Midlands and elsewhere, though a different firing technique was required. I myself have used 'Coventry Hard' from the fullsize Stepney's bunker that looked like slate but burnt extremely well in miniature locos.

Not sure if I have answered Hayden's question. The Admiralty and Naval contracts ceased for Welsh dry steam coal generations before I was born, so from the 1920s and 1930s they got used for UK loco supply in fullsize together with other seams. I can tell the difference! The dry steam coal has the odd white streak. The Welsh steam coal has the odd yellow streak and a slight hint of iron pyrites sometimes.

Cheers,
Julian

[steamcoal]

Julian.

It is worth me researching further.

There is also a recollection for historic writings that the British admiralty discovered steaming coal here on the West Coast of New Zealand during there ventures down here, and from around the late 1800. From memory the words were to the effect that's it was comparable to some of the best. Please don't scold me as I am endeavouring to locate the actual text, that's what I remember. When I find it I will publish it.

It is an interesting subject.

Thanks Julian.

H

[smallbrother]

The NCB Opencast Executive was looking to mine more of the mountain opposite me in the 1980's. We knew from records that the seams had been worked but when we did exploratory drilling we found they had removed the lot. This was unusual for mining in the early 20th century but the customer was the Royal Navy and WW1 was being fought at the time.

You are right Hayden, it is fascinating stuff. As Julian describes, all sorts of customers and uses were found.

Interesting that Donald Trump seems to be unshackling the coal industry in the US. While China and India are belching the stuff out with little/no control I do wonder at the sense of the western world failing to use their resources with cleaner burning techniques available.

Pete.

[steamcoal]

Pete.

The Aussies are also shipping million of tonnes to India and China, seems like there is no let up in the consumption.

Prices seem to recovering but the exporters really do not want to hold back in order to pay for the massive investments they made in the last decade. Its a fine balance but those like China and India really hold the upper hand over consumption and price control, well,of thermal coal anyway.

Hayden