NSW 'B' class mogul

[keith1500]

One suggestion that was given to me and seems to work well is apply some to each surface in turn and then wipe it off. This primes and cleans the surface. Then apply and assemble.

[steamer5]

Hi David,
The gent who’s workshop I used to frequent always complained that loctite never worked! It transpired that he was using kerosene to clean the parts prior to application! Once I got him off doing that & using a proper solvent the loctite worked much better.
I’ve got a couple of cans of air flow meter cleaner, think I got them at Supercheap, work great for cleaning oil off bits.

Cheers Kerrin

[David]

Thanks Keith and Kerrin.

I used sandpaper to clean the parts this time which was a bit tricky in a 1/4" bore. I didn't try to twist things too hard and just assumed it was strong enough to drill two 1/16 holes for roll pins. I put a bit of a chamfer on the holes to help lead the roll pins in and that worked well.

I put the Fertan on the cab and it went black and looks pretty awful but I can only hope it's doing something. The instructions said wipe it down with a damp cloth after a couple of hours and that took a fair bit of excess black off. It still looks pretty rough around the angles though. I could have avoided all this by soldering the angles on first, and even more by only tinning each part, then cleaning really well and sweating them together. But I didn't have the angles made when I was putting the cab together. Hindsight is quite irritating. I could also have used epoxy, which I will for the window rings.

So the loco hand brake is done, the cab is undergoing remedial action, and I'm trying to clean up loose ends on the running boards now. They needed cutouts for plumbing to go through, one bolt hole needs yet more opening out - it seems to be more and more in the wrong place as time goes on, and some lamp irons have to be made and riveted to the front. Some holes for locating dowels for the sandboxes are required.

Still quite pleased the bottom half is painted, it feels like one big thing that doesn't have to be done later. Hopefully I won't scratch it enough that it needs stripping and redoing at the end of the project.

[David]

The running boards are progressing. I cut out the plumbing openings yesterday. This morning I made the front lamp irons and used this sketchy method of transferring the holes. It was all done old school with files and centre punches and isn't very exact so I couldn't just coordinate drill the rivet holes. I'm surprised I got away with it. The rivet holes spotted through out of line on one side but a tweak with a shifter after the lamp iron was riveted on seems to have straightened things up. So that was a low tech, low accuracy start to the day!



Then I opened up the rear bolt down hole that keeps getting out of alignment with a little diamond burr in a pistol drill. So things weren't getting any more precise.

I thought I'd get more careful with the locating pegs for the sandboxes because I want them to be straight and in the same place each side. Didn't make a difference - the holes were in the correct place but the pins just dropped in and wiggled around. So I just measured and marked the holes with calipers, rules, and centre punches again. They seem pretty straight and I did have to open up one hole on each side but tried to elongate it only in the fore-aft direction so one hole still gave the correct distance from the front and both holes still gave lateral alignment.

Then a pleasantly simple job making 2BA studs to hold them down from 3/16" steel rod.

I think the next job will be to clean the splashers and solder the box parts to the top of them. Apparently these were not to give clearance to the oil pots on the coupling rods as I assumed but were part of the splasher casting that had something mounted on them that was later taken off. So they're not in line with anything in particular but will have to be inline with each other.

It doesn't look like much progress but it's quite a bit more than I was planning on for today.





I bought a small length of 100mm cast iron for the dome. It was $45 AU (about 30 pence) including a rapacious cutting cost so not a disaster if I stuff it up. That's less than 2 weeks of coffee. Still thinking about initial operations like facing and boring and not having it fly out of the chuck, and making the mandrel. This could well still be the last part of the loco made! I know the sheet copper would be a lot less but I loathe sheet metal work enough that I'll try anything before falling back on that.

[David]

Another job that has been put off for a year or two is this little bent pipe coming from a 'thing' and wrapping around behind the frames. I wish I had some 1/16" brass wire for this but all I could scrounge up was steel. I could not silver solder it because the thing is soft soldered together and because the pipe is steel I had to use bakers fluid again! Rather than putting that on the thing I used it to tin the end of the steel wire, washed that off quite well, and sweated it into place with phosphoric acid flux on the brass. I don't think it will be very strong but it doesn't have any force on it. The big blob of solder is there because by the time the solder had melted enough to push the rod into it's hole the rest of the thing looked like it was going fluid and I had to take the heat away. It was in a machinists clamp but that couldn't hold all the bits in place.

The bracket for the thing also required attention. When I took it off I noticed the top plate was flush on one side and all the overhang on the other because the holes spotted through were not accurate - surprise! I silver soldered the two bits together while they were held in a sprung pair of tweezers and drilled the holes out again so the bolts could go through. That particular soldering operation went very well with the thin solder I have. I was using a pretty gentle flame so I didn't burn the tweezers and the parts didn't even seem to get red before the solder flowed.



This may be the final piece of fabrication below the running boards and this and the brake cylinder need to be painted and put on to complete that project.

I made the boxes for the tops of the splashers late last year and decided to solder them on tonight too. It did not go as easily as I expected but it's done. I thought tinning them and sweating them on would be simple and provide a fillet of solder to represent the fillet of the casting but it didn't work out that way. Most of them went ok but didn't get a fillet, but one of them moved and covered half the splasher top in soft solder. The big gob of solder on the bottom left is filler to cover up a nasty cracked looking corner where I think I melted brass when first soldering the splasher together. I'll file that back soon but I'd had enough for the night by then.

[Jim]

Hi David,

We all have our own techniques for doing things such as soft soldering.

I too used Bakers flux until I discovered among other things the fumes given off resulted in anything steel in the workshop getting a patina of rust.

I now use a flux paste to 'tin' both parts being soldered. I then clean the parts to remove any trace of the flux paste, apart from all else flux and paint are not happy housemates.

Finally I sweat the two parts together to give a good bond right through the joint. That way there is no residual flux or paste left to do future damage.

Others have their own techniques so in the end you do what best suits you.

Jim

[David]

I agree Jim - while I was thinking about it the other night I decided that's how I should have done the cab angles. And I did do that for the steel rod yesterday.

What flux paste to you use? I only know of two fluxes that work for steel and they're both based upon the same acid.

[mbrown]

Is the "thing" the triple valve for a Westinghouse brake system? The end cover suggests that to me, but I may be wrong.

Malcolm

[David]

I have no idea. It is near the brake cylinder that actuates the loco brakes and there is a dummy air pump yet to be made for the loco. Google isn't giving me a clear image of a triple valve.

I'm considering remaking one of the front splashers because when I put them on last night I noticed it doesn't sit square against the sandbox and there's a gap of about 1mm on the outside - not acceptable. That splasher has evidence of my already trying to fix it with a shim of brass put in at the front end but I clearly messed that operation up. If I thought I could persuade it to sit properly I would try but I can't see how I could do it with the all the hard joints and small flanges up that end. Might be easier to unsolder it, recover what I can and make a new top.

[Jim]

Feb 17, 2020 21:37:25 GMT David said:

I agree Jim - while I was thinking about it the other night I decided that's how I should have done the cab angles. And I did do that for the steel rod yesterday.

What flux paste to you use? I only know of two fluxes that work for steel and they're both based upon the same acid.

I use a resin based flux I got at Jaycar but for steel I'd still use the bakers or similar to tin the surface then wash it to remove any trace of the acid.

It's well worth a stroll through one of the hardware stores to see what's available, low melt silver brazing has become available for plumbing work.

Jim

[Roger]

Although Soft Soldering seems like an easy option for some things, in practice it's more trouble than it's worth in my opinion, and results in a very weak and messy joint that can take a lot of cleaning up. Things like the splashers would be much stronger and easier to make in Steel, with tags to hold them together for Silver Soldering. You'll be surprised at how easy it is to make things that way, and they will be much more robust.

[David]

Other than the curved top I'm coming around to your point of view. I need to practice silver soldering more because sometimes it works really well and others it's a mess or I might even melt the job like I did with the other front splasher! The front splashers in particular are a bugger to make with their flat fronts that butt against the sandboxes. I was having thoughts of CNC profiling and tabs and slots before deciding to try and salvage this one.

I looked over this one yesterday and could see I'd grossly distorted the front plate by wedging some brass in to try and fill a gap. I tried to just remove the wedge but of course the front plate came off too. After cleaning up a square told me one story and putting it in place another so I went with in place and tried to solderer it while it was resting on the running board and against the sandbox. That didn't go well. I was using phosphoric acid flux and cleaned off the running board and sandbox immediately so hopefully no damage done.

I've got it barely held together with solder now with gaps everywhere and I'll fill them with JBWeld. I'd made a real mess of the splasher top so it isn't straight and doesn't fit anywhere particularly well. They were pretty annoying things to make and none of them are very good.

[Roger]

Feb 18, 2020 21:16:22 GMT David said:

Other than the curved top I'm coming around to your point of view. I need to practice silver soldering more because sometimes it works really well and others it's a mess or I might even melt the job like I did with the other front splasher! The front splashers in particular are a bugger to make with their flat fronts that butt against the sandboxes. I was having thoughts of CNC profiling and tabs and slots before deciding to try and salvage this one.

I looked over this one yesterday and could see I'd grossly distorted the front plate by wedging some brass in to try and fill a gap. I tried to just remove the wedge but of course the front plate came off too. After cleaning up a square told me one story and putting it in place another so I went with in place and tried to solderer it while it was resting on the running board and against the sandbox. That didn't go well. I was using phosphoric acid flux and cleaned off the running board and sandbox immediately so hopefully no damage done.

I've got it barely held together with solder now with gaps everywhere and I'll fill them with JBWeld. I'd made a real mess of the splasher top so it isn't straight and doesn't fit anywhere particularly well. They were pretty annoying things to make and none of them are very good.

This is why I would avoid Brass and switch to Steel, you won't melt that! It's easy to machine on your CNC with whatever tabs you need. For a round topped splasher, I'd make the wide top piece say 1mm wider on both sides than you need. That way you can add multiple small slots in there for the splasher side plates to go through. Those can stick through beyond the surface so you can just twist the ends round to keep it all in place. It's the sort of construction used on those Tinplate toy cars of yesteryear. It doesn't have to look pretty, it can easily be filed away when you're happy that the Silver Solder has taken everywhere. As long as you smother it in flux, poke the little piece of Silver Solder so they stay on the joint you're working on, you'll find it's easy. Sure, it might take a little longer to machine those tabs and slots, but you won't waste ages trying to rectify things. Time spent in preparation will be amply repaid by a simple job when you finally light up the blow torch.

[David]

Here's the splasher I made a meal of... no idea what I was thinking!

As posted above I've taken that sliver out now and soldered the front back on but everything was so uneven it could barely be held in place with solder. It's been filled with JB Weld and smoothed over.

[David]

There has been a little progress. I have riveted a steel ring to the back of the smokebox that will help hold the boiler in place. I think some screws go through this ring and the front of the boiler - in front of the tubeplate. Relieved to have this done because it wasn't all that easy. I did that a few weeks ago.

After I got the red train off the bench and there was no chance of the mogul touching it and catching a terminal disease, I brought the mogul back to its rightful place and finally finished off the splashers! They now have all their screws, they're in place, they fit. I had to rivet a couple of screws over on one of the middle splashers due to the hole being half-on/half-off the opening in the running board but that's ok.

I think the next job is the ash pan so I can put the boiler in place for the forseeable future. I also need to prime and paint the brake cylinders.

My first semester back at uni has just started (3rd time trying to finish my degree - not much use at 48 but I still want it!) so that's going to be my focus for most of the year. I'm planning to spend a few hours a week in the workshop so I don't stall.

[Shawki Shlemon]

Looks great .

[David]

I've done most of the ash pan, the only part left is an optional slide in part at the front to stop ashes falling straight down there. If I choose to do that I'll need to use a cutting disk to trim the front plate where it protrudes below the sides. If I don't do it now it might never happen, but I'm trying to get the loco back together to show off next weekend. So not decided on that one.



The part had a lot to recommend it. You can't see it, it just has to fit, it's all approximate. Probably the easiest part of the whole project so far! I still broke two drills of course. 1 1.6mm carbide drill doing the rivet holes in the 3mm copper. I was not surprised by that and got the broken tip out by punching and drilling from the other side. The other was an 8BA tapping drill in the firebox sides. I didn't realise how blunt it was until I tried the replacement. Enough of that was sticking out I could unscrew it with pliers.

Some more rust has shown up on the cab sides so I may end up unsoldering the angles yet. I haven't seen any rust on the boiler cladding yet thank goodness. I guess there was less opportunity for the flux to wick under other parts.

I also finished the 8 replacement safety valve bodies and spring tension screws I had to make due to cutting all the threads undersized on the first batch.

[David]

I painted the few remaining dummy brake related bits this afternoon.

Then I fitted the front part of the ashpan today. Only 1 more broken drill - I'm not very good at drilling into copper with a pistol drill!

Trying the boiler in the frames showed I had to remove all but the front and back screws of the bent part of ashpan as the 3 middle ones caught on the horn guides that the bottom of the outer firebox wrapper sits on. My boiler must be too wide in this area because as far as I can tell Barry uses the same sort of screws I have and it fits on his.



I need to take the boiler back out to fit the brake bits when the paint dries because they all have screws that go in from the inside of the frames. So I haven't put any cladding or anything on yet.

I cleaned some more rust off the cab sides, it's still creeping out from underneath the various overlaid bits of metal. Maybe some more rust converter is required.

[David]

Small progress but it means the underframe is finally done. The first couple of times I tried to paint the brake cylinder I couldn't figure out how to hold it and had paint runs and other problems. This time I came up with a painting stick that screws into one of the mounting holes on the back.



It's finally on and this photo helpfully shows up the dent it now has after I dropped it onto the workshop concrete floor the other day. It's heavier than I expect being solid and it's slipped out of my hands a few times.



Putting the boiler back into the frames and leveling it up again is the next step. Then back to cladding and handrails and so on.

[Jim]

Some nice detail there David especially in the second photo.

I don't know what you used as a painting stick but I find the skewers that you get with the chicken kabobs in the super market very handy for jobs like that plus you get a nice meal before you get to the skewers as an added bonus.

Jim