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Post by Roger on Mar 7, 2021 19:47:36 GMT
Ok, these are as simple as I can get the design. Both of the bottom branches are the same length, and the same distance from the ends. I've done it that way so that it doesn't matter which way round it's Silver Soldered. In this first version, the Steam Cone gap is set by machining the Red sleeve to length. The sleeve can be made over length, the offset measured with a depth gauge and the sleeve trimmed to length. It can be tested with regulation discs with holes of say 1.2mm and 1.3mm, to see what works best. In any case, it's not a big job to make a new sleeve. Standard 16 fl oz injector with disc regulation by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Here's an alternative arrangement where you don't need the regulation disc. The thread could be made 1.5mm longer so the union nut can go on further. In this version, the Steam Cone is located in the body directly, and the Red sleeve is threaded onto the shoulder of the Steam Cone. There's an undercut beyond the thread to make it easier to cut the thread. The Sleeve is adjusted to give the exact regulation gap required. The ends can be brought level against a flat surface, and the angle the thread is turned forward sets the gap. When it's assembled, there's a gentle force on the end holding it all in place. Once the gap is just right, it can be fixed with a drop of screw lock or sealing compound to make sure it doesn't move when it's being cleaned. A line could be scribed along the body and the sleeve to indicate where it should be lined up. Either solution works for me, they're both very easy to make. Standard 16 fl oz injector with adjustable sleeve by Georgia Montgomery, on Flickr Just one quick observation about the water feed. I was told that this needed to be 5mm pipe so make sure there was sufficient flow to the Injector. However, it's quite clear that the injector can be supplied through a 1.3mm hole! Ok, I'm not suggesting that you use pipe with a 1.3mm hole, but it does indicate to me that the pipe size usually fitted doesn't actually need to be 5mm for this size on injector.
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Post by Roger on Mar 8, 2021 23:03:06 GMT
So far, I haven't shared any useful drawings for the One Piece Cone, and that means it's possibly of interest, but of no practical use for someone who wants to make one. So here's a watermarked large drawing that hopefully you can see clearly enough to make out all of the dimensions. The necessary Steam Cone has a 9 degree taper with a 1.1mm throat that's 2.64mm from the face. The throat is 6.5mm long. You can make the rest of it any way you like, although rounding off the nose slightly is advantagous. The watermark is just to make sure that it's credited to me and not someone else. I reserve the right to make these and any variant of the design for private and commercial use if I see fit. However, I'm happy for this to be made by anyone for their own use or to make them for sale. I take no responsibility for any issues arising from these activities, and make no claims about its performance or guarantees about the correctness of the drawing. You make it at your own risk. Hopefully this drawing will be copied and shared so that the work is not lost. I should have added that the O-rings are 4mm ID with 1mm section and the cone fits in a reamed 6mm bore. NB:- This is the updated Issue 3 drawing which corrects the comment about the angle. One piece cone drawing Iss 3 by Timothy Froud, on Flickr
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Post by Oily Rag on Mar 9, 2021 6:27:41 GMT
It is copied, saved and printed off. My shout when we meet up.
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Post by 92220 on Mar 11, 2021 8:55:27 GMT
Copied and saved too. Thank you, Roger, for all that superb, experimental work! A real education for many of us!!
Bob.
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tony9f
Involved Member
Posts: 95
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Post by tony9f on Apr 16, 2021 9:32:53 GMT
Hi Roger,
Outstanding work on the injector. I have also saved a copy of your drawing under the title of 'Froud Injector' just to make sure that credit is given where it is due. You have also helped to dispel a lot of the myths surrounding injectors in my view.
Tony
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 692
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Post by oldnorton on Feb 16, 2022 20:27:06 GMT
Roger
Your articles in Model Engineer read very well, and the latest four-pages in the current edition especially so. It feels completely different than this thread, obviously the same principle of the one-piece cone and drilled 'gaps', but it feels as if you carried on with trials after this thread ended in March 2021. The combined overflow and flat disc valve seem new, or have I missed that?
Anyway, certainly the the most advanced technological report in ME for several years and the biggest step in injector design - well done. I am guessing from the way the text is going it will give the scheme for a scale 8X?
Norm
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Post by Roger on Feb 17, 2022 20:41:42 GMT
Roger Your articles in Model Engineer read very well, and the latest four-pages in the current edition especially so. It feels completely different than this thread, obviously the same principle of the one-piece cone and drilled 'gaps', but it feels as if you carried on with trials after this thread ended in March 2021. The combined overflow and flat disc valve seem new, or have I missed that? Anyway, certainly the the most advanced technological report in ME for several years and the biggest step in injector design - well done. I am guessing from the way the text is going it will give the scheme for a scale 8X? Norm Hi Norm, i'm glad you're finding the article interesting. I haven't introduced anything new in the text, but it did become quite spread out in the Forum thread, so that might be why you didn't see the combined overflow flat disc valve. I think I showed most of the 8X construction in the SPEEDY thread, just showing the relevent design part in this thread. The article does follow on to show the completed goal of designing and making a working 8X Injector, including the drawing I published here for the One Piece Cone. My intention was to explore the reasoning behind this different mechanical arrangement and simplification of the cone manufacturing process. In the last part, I show how this type of construction can be used in a non-scale injector body. I hoped to encourage others to make the One Piece Cone and put that into whatever style of body they feel like making. Personally, I think this is much easier to make than the traditional arrangement of cones where alignment and spacing are so critical. I don't know how much they're printing in each magazine, but I think it's probably going to run into four or five issues.
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 692
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Post by oldnorton on Mar 9, 2022 14:06:38 GMT
Hi Roger
Well done making the front cover of ME!
It is excellent that you have been able to show all the research and ideas for a step forward in injector design, but I have been left wondering if there could have been a little bit more published, or if the Editor has missed things out?
The extensive use of the 3D CAM mill is, of course, impressive. But perhaps there could have been some thoughts for how mere mortals with hand controlled lathe and mill might achieve the same outcomes? I was looking forward to some 2D drawings of the insert, and all the critical dimensions, and the tolerances that should be worked to (the drawing above would be a start). And perhaps a dimensioned drawing of the 8X body, and a 10X and a 'conventional' model injector, would give us a chance of fabricating one, or putting the job out to a lost wax casting business.
I am asking myself whether anyone is going to be able to make one of your intriguing designs from what is in ME, which would be a shame, but perhaps that was not on your wish list; and perhaps I am failing to give credit to far brighter people than me who could and might.
Norm
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Post by 92220 on Mar 9, 2022 15:10:36 GMT
Hi Norm.
I've taken a second look at Roger's drawing above. I haven't seen what is in the M.E., but assume it is the same as drawn above. There is actually all the information needed for anyone to be able to make the 1-piece cone unit, as long as the person making it, has a reasonable dividing head set-up to drill the holes in the right places. Admittedly a certain amount of machining skill is needed to get all the features in exactly the right places, and at the right dimensions. But that goes for any job that needs to be machined to tolerances.
I am certainly thinking of taking a stab at making a couple for my 9f. As far as the injector body goes, in one of Roger's notes above, he say that the cone, with o-rings, will slide into a 6mm reamed hole. So as long as one can get a 6mm reamed hole in the injector body, and it is long enough to accept the 1-piece cone, with any means to suitably seal the ends, then a working injector should be the result. All the lengths are on the upper view of the drawing, and all the diameters ore on the lower view. Diameters that are not dimensioned are assumed to be repeats of the similar feature, that is dimensioned, at the other end. The drawing does fit in with all normal drawing office practice.
Bob.
Bob.
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Post by Roger on Mar 9, 2022 18:33:34 GMT
Hi Roger Well done making the front cover of ME! It is excellent that you have been able to show all the research and ideas for a step forward in injector design, but I have been left wondering if there could have been a little bit more published, or if the Editor has missed things out? The extensive use of the 3D CAM mill is, of course, impressive. But perhaps there could have been some thoughts for how mere mortals with hand controlled lathe and mill might achieve the same outcomes? I was looking forward to some 2D drawings of the insert, and all the critical dimensions, and the tolerances that should be worked to (the drawing above would be a start). And perhaps a dimensioned drawing of the 8X body, and a 10X and a 'conventional' model injector, would give us a chance of fabricating one, or putting the job out to a lost wax casting business. I am asking myself whether anyone is going to be able to make one of your intriguing designs from what is in ME, which would be a shame, but perhaps that was not on your wish list; and perhaps I am failing to give credit to far brighter people than me who could and might. Norm Thanks Norm, I was surprised and delighted to see that. It's an honour to be there, and I'm grateful that the Editor thought it was interesting enough to be there. I can't comment on what's been published, I don't have the magazine to see if everything I included was there. However, you may find there's still another part to come. There is indeed a 2D drawing of the One Piece cone and further musings and 3D sectioned models of more conventionally shaped bodies at the end of the series. If there's enough interest, I might write a supplementary article on suggested methods of making the One Piece Cone.
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Post by Roger on Mar 9, 2022 18:39:48 GMT
Hi Norm. I've taken a second look at Roger's drawing above. I haven't seen what is in the M.E., but assume it is the same as drawn above. There is actually all the information needed for anyone to be able to make the 1-piece cone unit, as long as the person making it, has a reasonable dividing head set-up to drill the holes in the right places. Admittedly a certain amount of machining skill is needed to get all the features in exactly the right places, and at the right dimensions. But that goes for any job that needs to be machined to tolerances. I am certainly thinking of taking a stab at making a couple for my 9f. As far as the injector body goes, in one of Roger's notes above, he say that the cone, with o-rings, will slide into a 6mm reamed hole. So as long as one can get a 6mm reamed hole in the injector body, and it is long enough to accept the 1-piece cone, with any means to suitably seal the ends, then a working injector should be the result. All the lengths are on the upper view of the drawing, and all the diameters ore on the lower view. Diameters that are not dimensioned are assumed to be repeats of the similar feature, that is dimensioned, at the other end. The drawing does fit in with all normal drawing office practice. Bob. Bob. Hi Bob, The drawing might be in one last edition. I reckoned it ought to run to at least four, judging by the amount of material. I think anyone with a Mill and rotary table/dividing head and centre finder should be able to machine the holes in the right places. The design ought to be more tolerant of manufacturing tolerances than the traditional designs where concentricity between separately made parts is so critical. I'm sure you will have no difficulty in making one, judging by what I've seen of your superb workmanship.
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oldnorton
Statesman
5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 692
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Post by oldnorton on Mar 9, 2022 20:51:03 GMT
I can't comment on what's been published, I don't have the magazine to see if everything I included was there. However, you may find there's still another part to come. There is indeed a 2D drawing of the One Piece cone and further musings and 3D sectioned models of more conventionally shaped bodies at the end of the series. If there's enough interest, I might write a supplementary article on suggested methods of making the One Piece Cone. Roger, my apologies if my previous comments sound like a 'moan', I think it was my disappointment at seeing the magazine not show what we all know would be fantastic designs for anyone to more easily make their own injectors. My comment about the need for drawings is because no 2D dimensioned drawings have been printed in ME. Yes, as Bob says, the drawing shown earlier in this thread is most helpful but ME have not shown it so far. Part Five just published looks like the last of the series as there is no "to be continued" or "Next time" at its end. I hope I am wrong. Norm
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Post by Roger on Mar 9, 2022 21:22:29 GMT
I can't comment on what's been published, I don't have the magazine to see if everything I included was there. However, you may find there's still another part to come. There is indeed a 2D drawing of the One Piece cone and further musings and 3D sectioned models of more conventionally shaped bodies at the end of the series. If there's enough interest, I might write a supplementary article on suggested methods of making the One Piece Cone. Roger, my apologies if my previous comments sound like a 'moan', I think it was my disappointment at seeing the magazine not show what we all know would be fantastic designs for anyone to more easily make their own injectors. My comment about the need for drawings is because no 2D dimensioned drawings have been printed in ME. Yes, as Bob says, the drawing shown earlier in this thread is most helpful but ME have not shown it so far. Part Five just published looks like the last of the series as there is no "to be continued" or "Next time" at its end. I hope I am wrong. Norm Hi Norm, I've just looked through the article again, and it looks like I didn't include the drawing! I'm sure I intended to. I need to rectify this, so I'll contact the Editor and see what he wants to do. Sorry about that. I think the best thing to do is to write a follow up article that goes into specific details on how to make this type of Injector.
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Post by Roger on Mar 10, 2022 19:56:04 GMT
Just to let you know that I've started writing an article that will include a fully dimensioned 16 fl oz/minInjector that ought to drop in place of one of the standard types. I think this is the most useful to most Model Engineers. If someone wants to adapt this to fit another body, that's done easily enough.
This will take a while because there are drawings to prepare and photos to collate, as well as a fair bit of thought needed to explain satisfactory ways of making the key parts.
Now I come to think of it, this is what I had in mind originally. However, it took so long for the article to be published I'd forgotten about that. It's a sign of my increasing age I'm afraid.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,901
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Post by jma1009 on Mar 10, 2022 22:50:20 GMT
Hi Roger,
I hope that in respect of your above post that in your series of articles (that I haven't seen or read) you will include something about the diverging cone having a 6 degree or alternatively as I have advocated a 9 degree taper.
Cheers, Julian
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Post by Roger on Mar 11, 2022 0:15:23 GMT
Hi Roger, I hope that in respect of your above post that in your series of articles (that I haven't seen or read) you will include something about the diverging cone having a 6 degree or alternatively as I have advocated a 9 degree taper. Cheers, Julian Hi Julian, Yes, a note in the first article mentions that the tapers can be the same on both ends of the One Piece Cone. That will also be shown in the drawings that will be included in the article. It's a big advantage to only need two reamers instead of three. Many thanks for pointing that out, it's a big help and simplifies making them.
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weary
Part of the e-furniture
Posts: 290
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Post by weary on Mar 29, 2022 12:33:58 GMT
Hello Roger,
Just to let you know that your injector articles in Model Engineer have stimulated a letter to the editor printed in the current Model Engineer; Vol.228, No.4687, 25 March -7 April 2022:
"What a good series of articles by Roger Froud (issues 4682 to 4685) - good to know someone is prepared to experiment. This might even tempt me to think about making an injector! Must be just coincidence that Mr Froud has almost the same surname as the Froude who was a significant hydrodynamics expert after whom the Froude number is based (all to do with speed and waterline length of boats I think).
"Anyway, in the latest episode Mr Froud mentions that he can't get SAE660 in 1/4 inch diameter - you can get Colphos which is pretty much the same.
Regards,
Duncan Webster"
(Posted as I believe that you don't 'take' Model Engineer magazine.)
Addendum: Duncan Webster is a regular poster on Model Engineer website.
Regards, Phil.
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Post by Roger on Mar 29, 2022 18:00:18 GMT
Hello Roger, Just to let you know that your injector articles in Model Engineer have stimulated a letter to the editor printed in the current Model Engineer; Vol.228, No.4687, 25 March -7 April 2022: "What a good series of articles by Roger Froud (issues 4682 to 4685) - good to know someone is prepared to experiment. This might even tempt me to think about making an injector! Must be just coincidence that Mr Froud has almost the same surname as the Froude who was a significant hydrodynamics expert after whom the Froude number is based (all to do with speed and waterline length of boats I think). "Anyway, in the latest episode Mr Froud mentions that he can't get SAE660 in 1/4 inch diameter - you can get Colphos which is pretty much the same. Regards, Duncan Webster" (Posted as I believe that you don't 'take' Model Engineer magazine.) Addendum: Duncan Webster is a regular poster on Model Engineer website.Regards, Phil. Hi Phil, Thanks for that, I'm pleased it was of interest to some readers. You're right, I don't take ME, and I haven't heard anything back from the Editor, so I had no idea if there was any feedback or not. Thanks for taking the trouble to copy that for me, it's much appreciated. Roger
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Post by Oily Rag on Mar 29, 2022 21:16:34 GMT
Hello Roger, Just to let you know that your injector articles in Model Engineer have stimulated a letter to the editor printed in the current Model Engineer; Vol.228, No.4687, 25 March -7 April 2022: "What a good series of articles by Roger Froud (issues 4682 to 4685) - good to know someone is prepared to experiment. This might even tempt me to think about making an injector! Must be just coincidence that Mr Froud has almost the same surname as the Froude who was a significant hydrodynamics expert after whom the Froude number is based (all to do with speed and waterline length of boats I think). "Anyway, in the latest episode Mr Froud mentions that he can't get SAE660 in 1/4 inch diameter - you can get Colphos which is pretty much the same. Regards, Duncan Webster" (Posted as I believe that you don't 'take' Model Engineer magazine.) Addendum: Duncan Webster is a regular poster on Model Engineer website.Regards, Phil. Hi Phil, Thanks for that, I'm pleased it was of interest to some readers. You're right, I don't take ME, and I haven't heard anything back from the Editor, so I had no idea if there was any feedback or not. Thanks for taking the trouble to copy that for me, it's much appreciated. Roger I am enjoying reading your ME articles , however as we hang on upside down we wait for the 4 th part to arrive. For me I prefer magazines, books, paper compared to reading a screen. Take them camping, to the dunny, laying down on the couch, to the work shop, back to the dunny, in bed before going off to the land of ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, my reading material gets an abused look to it very quickly . The best new thread in my ME world since DRO and PCB drills arrived into my world.
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Post by Roger on Mar 30, 2022 7:32:38 GMT
Hi Phil, Thanks for that, I'm pleased it was of interest to some readers. You're right, I don't take ME, and I haven't heard anything back from the Editor, so I had no idea if there was any feedback or not. Thanks for taking the trouble to copy that for me, it's much appreciated. Roger I am enjoying reading your ME articles , however as we hang on upside down we wait for the 4 th part to arrive. For me I prefer magazines, books, paper compared to reading a screen. Take them camping, to the dunny, laying down on the couch, to the work shop, back to the dunny, in bed before going off to the land of ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, my reading material gets an abused look to it very quickly . The best new thread in my ME world since DRO and PCB drills arrived into my world. Thanks Daz, I really appreciate that. However, I will forever associate the article with you reading it on the dunny...
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