Coal

[JonL]

I'm getting close to the stage where I'm going to be firing my locomotive on the rollers. What would you say is the best coal to run a 3.5 locomotive on? I realise there is no right answer, I'm just interested in what people use. I may have my answer dictated by what I can get locally of course.

[smallbrother]

Said it many times but anthracite beans for me. Will probably fit through your door and be fine for a rolling road test. For firing on the run I think you would probably need to reduce to "grain" size coal. If not available commercially just bash the beans to size.

I think you would have to break steam coal up as it comes in quite large pieces that would not fit through the door. Also it would not provide the heat that anthracite does.

Hope it all goes well whatever you use!

Pete.

[Midland]

Hi Nobby
Our society uses the coal from Signal fuels and they supply three sizes, 3 1/2", 5 and 7 1/4". They are all a variation on beans and I forget the names they use but can find out. They are all welsh anthracite. If you like I can send you an ice cream tub with some in to try out as I imagine you are not going too far!
Cheers David

[JonL]

David that would be most helpful, let me know the cost and postage via PM and I will get you reimbursed before you send. Thats a very generous offer.

Thanks to you both for the assistance.

[don9f]

Yes, Anthracite “Grains” is slightly smaller than “Beans” and is good for 3 1/2” gauge.

Don

[jma1009]

I am not going to cross swords with my old friend Pete (smallbrother) as to his adherence to the use of anthracite. I was brought up (with miniature locos) on club anthracite and privately sourced Welsh steam coal, and quickly took the view that Welsh steam coal suited me, and didn't give me a bad throat and chest like anthracite does.

And to link into the other thread yesterday, don't use Columbian coal on a miniature loco - unless you want to end up in hospital (not a good idea currently).

And don't use house coal even if our miniature traction engine friends will tell you otherwise.

If you are in Wiltshire, have a look online for those who supply coal to the traction engine clubs, or visit Didcot with a few bags and offer them a donation to fill them.

You could just use charcoal for your first steam up - soaked initially in BBQ lighter fluid.

Cheers,

Julian

[JonL]

Charcoal would make sense, readily available. Thank you

[smallbrother]

I think Julian has managed to procure some very good Steam Coal for his private use and I too have found it works very well sometimes, just not as reliable as anthracite for me. I don't get chest problems with either, although Steam Coal smells more and produces more smoke in my experience. I recall visiting Mizens railway a few years ago and they had some lovely steam coal to use that particular day.

The very nature of coal means it will vary and couple that with the human element in digging and sorting it and it will not be the same every batch.

I believe anthracite is available in grains<beans<small nuts. Steam Coal is only available (AFAIK) in small nuts, thus unless you break it down you are looking at quite large 7.25 loco use.

As Julian says, charcoal will raise steam and allow you to test everything quite nicely.

Pete.

[steamcoal]

Pete,

Speaking from a reasonable experience and having a bit to do with Welsh Anthracite and Dry Steam coal, we know that a combination of both can be used together as we do in our 3.5" Maisie quite successfully. Both varieties of Welsh offer there own vurtues but the Welsh Dry does take a while to build up but offers a good base fire as it freely burns by itself and the anthracite takes over when under load with a good chuff.

Beans for even the 3.5" I have found but so for 7 1/4" Brittannia so take your pick. Really depends what lights your fire.

Sounds like I better do some investigation into those anthracite mines Peter, need enough to see me through for another 40 years.

How you going anyway Pete?, nearly a year since I saw you on my visit.

Hayden

[JonL]

I can confirm I had no problems with anthracite beans once lit, I think I've got the start of a technique going now.

[flyingfox]

Great news, well done.
Regards
Brian

[daveburrage]

An attraction of anthracite is that it produces less soot, if you have a superheater it stands a chance of working for a while at least before it chokes up. I've not had any steaming problems with welsh or even house coal and it is nice to see a bit of smoke, but keeping the tubes clear is a bit more effort.

regards

Dave Burrage

[JonL]

To revisit this topic, I'm finding when running on anthracite beans I'm running with blower most of the time. It's been suggested elsewhere that dropping to grains will result in needing less blower.

Are there any downsides to this technique? As a reminder my Locomotive is 3.5 gauge

[oldnorton]

The grains are perhaps more in scale for your engine but I cannot see that the bigger beans will not produce a similar fire.

Are you on rollers or on a track? Getting sufficient draught when running very light on rollers is really testing the chimney design. If you cannot generate enough draw on a track then something needs changing in the draughting. You have got sufficient holes in the ashpan haven't you?

Have a look in the next ME edition where I have written something that might (or might not) be helpful.

Norm

[JonL]

I look forward to it Norm. This was running on the track, my understanding was that anthracite needs quite a bit of blower, maybe with grains the increased surface area would change things, but I wonder if the airflow through the grate would be reduced.

[John Baguley]

Hi Jon,

I would suggest that beans are too big for your William so definitely try grains.

I've found with 2½" gauge locos and small 3½" locos like Rob Roy that the size of the coal makes a big difference to the steaming. It's very easy to use coal that is too big. I've always used grains but now I sieve them to leave the smaller pieces and use those. Within reason, the smaller the coal, the more that you can pack into the firebox and the greater the surface area that there is to burn. The smaller size burns away faster but you get a lot more heat. Using bigger coal means less surface area to burn and less heat produced. You will also suck a lot of cold air through it via the grate.

A friend of mine uses very small coal, probably half the size of normal grains, for his 2½" gauge locos and they all steam like crazy. He gave me a bag of his coal once and it was wonderful stuff. Not sure what type of coal it was though.

I use mostly anthracite grains as that is what we can get easily from local coal merchants. We used to go to Signal fuels at Ripley to get their steam coal but the chap once told us that he didn't think that there was much difference between anthracite and steam coal anyway. Maybe their steam coal is not 'proper' steam coal?

If you need to run with the blower on all the time when using anthracite then the draughting probably needs looking at. Maybe try using a 50/50 mixture of anthracite and steam coal? The steam coal will burn easier and the anthracite will provide more heat. Be aware that what some coal merchants call steam coal is actually just anthracite.

It's a case of experimenting until you find what suits your particular loco best.

John

[smallbrother]

Mar 5, 2021 11:54:14 GMT John Baguley said:

Hi Jon,

Maybe their steam coal is not 'proper' steam coal?

[/div]
Be aware that what some coal merchants call steam coal is actually just anthracite.[/div]

John

[/quote]


Just to clarify guys that Anthracite is of a higher rank than Bituminous Coal (Steam Coal is in this category), and the lowest rank is Lignite.

I have run miniature engines large and small on anthracite and wouldn't generally use anything else.

Steam Coal is a most unhelpful term, it isn't an official classification and just refers to a bituminous type of coal that is marketed for us.

Pete.

[JonL]

I seem to remember something from Julian where he mentioned it was from a specific mine in Wales.

This is a real education, I do love this website. I will however tone back the quantity of questions for a while, I know I've been a scattergun!

[coniston]

I've also used grains for 3 1/2" locos and even in small firebox 5" locos. I'm sure there was something in the BR engineman's book (is that the black book) that illustrated the benefits of using smaller coal.

Don't stop the questions, it broadens the subject matter on the forum and invites different solutions for all of us

Chris D

[smallbrother]

Mar 5, 2021 13:57:47 GMT JonL said:

I seem to remember something from Julian where he mentioned it was from a specific mine in Wales.

This is a real education, I do love this website. I will however tone back the quantity of questions for a while, I know I've been a scattergun!

Steam Coal could be used to describe most of the coal in the South Wales Coalfield with the exception of everything that lies west of my house, which is Anthracite. It could all be chucked in the fire of a fullsize loco and would raise steam but some seams were much better than others for this purpose.

There are very few mines currently in production so yes, only one source now for "Steam Coal" as far as I know - Ffos y Fran Opencast site in Merthyr.

When I worked in the coal industry 1977 - 1992 no-one referred to Steam Coal, it wasn't an officially recognised classification. That said, we used to supply the then Dart Valley Railway with lorry loads from the Opencast mine close to where Ffos y Fran is now. The coal between Merthyr and Aberdare (where I live) lies close to the transition zone from Bituminous to Anthracite. Because of this proximity to the Anthracite zone many of the seams were of top quality Bituminous coal and were much sought after by the Royal Navy in the early 20th Century. The seams here are still fairly flat and easy to extract, hence the price was not too high. The very best Anthracite in West Wales is subject to serious faulting and folding making it very high quality but also very difficult to extract. Hence the higher cost to dig it out.

It all burns Nobby, just that some suits steam engines better than others.

With regards to driving with the blower on, some days I need to do this and some days not so much. I visited the North Wilts Society a few years back and the Holmside was blowing off like crazy all day, hardly any blower. No idea why - I was using my own Anthracite beans so can't put it down to some super batch of coal.

Hope you are still awake after reading my ramblings!

Pete.