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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 16:27:45 GMT
Hi guys
Has anyone stripped down their WM16, in particular the spindle? I've had a few issues of late with my mill, although I can't feel any play in the spindle there is sometimes when under load a 'rattle' sound. Today I also had another issue, this time the motor kept slowing down and stalling under load. I removed the easiest brush to reach and sprayed some electrical spray on the armature, this helped for a while so i'm thinking it's the brushes. It was while talking to 'Warco spares' mentioning the spindle and asking about new bearings that they said check that the spindle nut hasn't come loose. The instruction was to remove the 'C' clip, pull off the plastic cover and tighten the nut which is a 'pin' type, that is, it has two holes for a tool to fit and tighten. Well, I got the 'C' clip off but that's as far as I got, the plastic cover (might have a metal outer) doesn't look like it just pulls off? There's a thread with keyways down it and what looks like another type of clip that holds the cover on, trouble is I can't see how this would be removed, I don't think that it's a sprung fit as there's no room to open it. It may be threaded but if so I can't see a way of undoing it. It may simply be a case of yanking it off but before I try that I thought that I'd ask if any of you guys who own a WM16 have taken their own spindle apart?
Thanks in advance for any help/advice given, if anyone has a diagram I'd love to see it.
Pete
BTW: while searching for answers or even a diagram of the machine's layout I found a mention of replacement brushes being available from Arceurotrade, on checking their Sieg X3 machine they do indeed look identical, since they are a third of the price of Warco's I've ordered a couple of sets to see if they fit.
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Post by silverfox on Jul 2, 2020 16:55:39 GMT
Small World
My WM16 also threw a wobbly regarding the motor, surging and not giving 'enough torque' I took out the brush looked ok ans replaced it. , thereted
Cannot help you with the spindle Have you also put this on the Model engineering board, there are guys on there who have also convderted it into a CNC , i would but the electrical terms lost me in the first sentence
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 16:58:43 GMT
Thank's for the input Ron.. I don't post on the ME forum so no I haven't.. hoping that someone knows of a link for a diagram.
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Post by silverfox on Jul 2, 2020 16:59:35 GMT
Can i copy and paste for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 17:18:45 GMT
If you have a drawing yes please...either here of email or FB...I'm easy...
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,209
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Post by jasonb on Jul 2, 2020 17:43:43 GMT
Have a look at some of the American suppliers sites as they usually have links to download the manuals and parts drawings with the added bonus of better manuals. The likes of Grizzley, Precision Matthews, DRO Pros,etc all do similar Weiss derived machines.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 18:08:25 GMT
Thank's Jason, I have used Grizzly info befote as yes they have in the past had details that matched my Warco machines. Things seem to have changed as I've not seen the older warco machines on the site today. I'll have another look though..
Cheers
Pete
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jul 2, 2020 20:13:56 GMT
Peteer The Grizzley mills nearest the WM16 are G0704 and G0709. I have both manuals downloaded, if you want copies pm me your email address and I will send you them. I had the spindle on my WM16 come seriously loose. This was due to the collar at the base of the spindle that holds the whole assembly into the housing coming loose. This collar is NOT shown on the parts list. It has two pin holes to allow it to be tightened by a angle grinder style spanner. This is probably what Warco were talking about. I stripped the whole head to check the bearings etc. The collar was put back with loctite, hoping I will not have to remove it again in a hurry. I found a video on Youtube which showed how to strip the head by Googling the Grizzley mills. Warco were not much use. Hope this helps. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 20:18:31 GMT
Hi Dave
That's great...PM sent
Cheers
Pete
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Post by Jim on Jul 3, 2020 0:30:55 GMT
For what it's worth Pete, I have a Hafco Mill which is very similar to the Warco version and probably sourced from the same factory and it too 'rattled' under load especially when gear cutting. I traced the source of the noise to the splines in the quill rattling in the key ways of the spindle drive pulley. The loss of power I found was due to a dodgy capacitor.
Hope you get it sorted soon,
Jim
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jasonb
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,209
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Post by jasonb on Jul 3, 2020 6:18:09 GMT
Thank's Jason, I have used Grizzly info befote as yes they have in the past had details that matched my Warco machines. Things seem to have changed as I've not seen the older warco machines on the site today. I'll have another look though.. Cheers Pete They still have all the manuals for other machines if you go down to the bottom of their homepage, just need an idea of what their model mumber was.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 11:40:21 GMT
Hi guys... back for some electrical advice...
New brushes arrived this morning, fitted and made no difference, I was hoping that these were the culprit as they were the cheaper option even though I didn't experience the normal symptom of when a brush fails, that is no sparks or shorting of fuses. So I'm now thinking that the motor itself is kaput, winding perhaps? Before spending money that I don't have on a new motor I thought it best to ask the collective for advice just in case I'm missing something. BTW, the old brushes taken out of the motor showed very little signs of wear, being very close to the size of the new ones that arrived this morning. So I have a suspected motor failure or could it be something in the electronics? I think not but will see what you guys think. The issue is that the motor stalls when under load, it will start to cut but after say 20-30 secs it will begin to slow/stall and finally stop altogether. The motor runs fine on its own and the speed controller is working as the motor seems to go through the entire rev range. It is this that makes me think its the motor and not the electronics but not knowing much about such things, I thought best to ask those who do. Such as, is it possible that something on the electronic board is breaking down and causing this? My mind says no but I just don't know, these are after all Chinese electronics, there is no heat being generated from the board, nor for that matter the motor either. Everything runs fine until after a very short while of cutting metal and then it begins to slow/stall and if pushed a few seconds further stops altogether, this is even with very light cuts, 1 thou or even just another pass at the same setting?
Needless to say, this has brought a complete stop to working on 4472, time that I really don't have as I now have a timeline to work too, I'll explain the reasons for that another day. If I had money to burn I'd just buy a new mill and get the old fixed another day when time allowed. Alas, I don't and as I said, time is of the essence now so I can't afford to keep playing around ordering parts that may or may not work.
Over to you chaps...
Pete
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Post by chris vine on Jul 4, 2020 12:51:54 GMT
Hi Pete,
How very frustrating for you.
When it stalls, can you check that the spindle is free to turn by hand? If it is the spindle/drive which is seizing up, then I would think it will stay stiff for a while after stalling. If it is still free to turn by hand, then I think you are looking at a motor/electronics problem.
Can you remove the motor and run it on the bench or clamped by a flange in the vice (milling vice)? You might get some clues from that.
You could even apply a load with a piece of wood pressing on the shaft/pulley (but probably not a gear) as long as you are not going to get pulled towards it. Take care obviously!!
Electronics can be a real difficult thing to fault find, especially if it is an intermittent problem. "Luckily" you seem to have a repeatable problem here.
If you can run the motor free from the machine, it should run quietly and not get unduly hot. If there is a problem with a winding inside, I think you would become aware of it. I don't know how much a replacement motor and/or electronic board is, but if you do have to go down that route, I would think about replacing the motor first. At least a new motor won't damage the electronics if that is ok. If you were to put a new electronics board onto the machine, and it was the motor which was damaged, then you could just damage the electronics again.
Finally, can you get an alternative motor and speed controller, perhaps from Newton Tesla? First they will be good quality and secondly, being a standard frame size/fitting you have got yourself away from being reliant on the machine supplier for spares. They might be cheaper too!!!
Just a few thoughts... All best Chris.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jul 4, 2020 13:02:21 GMT
Pete I had a similar problem on my WM250V lathe a couple of weeks ago. In that case I traced it to one of the fuse holders not making contact properly with the ends of the fuse. I jury rigged it (Bodged!) to keep it going and bought a fuse holder off EBay. Worth a look. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 13:26:30 GMT
Hi Chris
many thanks for your thoughts...
yes, it's free to turn by hand, I can see/feel/hear no problem mechanically wrong with the machine. I have checked the spindle for play and there's none.
I haven't tried to remove the motor and power it yet, getting in the box to disconnect is a bit of a pain, plus I'm wary of damaging anything inside.
I have tried to load the motor by hand, I can't get it to stop or slow by doing this, I suspect that I can't generate the same load as felt during actual machining or that I can't do it long enough for the symptom to show.
The motor makes no unusual noises, it's a pretty quiet machine, to begin with.
IIRC the machine is now 10 years old, I forget when I bought it. In this time it has had a new control unit and motor, both of those were under warranty. I actually had a 3rd motor which Warco sent before it was discovered that the board had failed, I changed this a while back... perhaps a year or two when the motor failed again. I now have 3 dud motors in various states of repair. The current problem I have not experienced before, never had a motor seem to run fine but stop under load and this is why I very unsure as to whether its the motor or the board, I was hoping it was just the brushes, clearly my luck was out on this one.
I have been reading through some old ME forum posts on the same machine which have a number of people who have had similar problems as I but not the specific issue experienced now. I'm no electrician and thus its all a black art to me, even if I knew what to look for I don't even have a multimeter to test.
There was a comment on ME about someone finding a UK company who can repair these boards, think he said its a KB controller, I may look into this but from what I can tell the board is ok? I mean I have a motor that still runs and the board is controlling it, suggestions for testing the board state to connect up a light bulb and if it dims and brightens the board is ok, well the motor is increasing/decreasing rpm as I operate the control so to me that means it's working? What I don't know is if there's a part of the board that has failed/failing and while still operating the Vario speed itself, it won't run the motor while under load? As I said, there is no heat from either the board or motor to give a hint as to what may be failing.
If I was to go down the workshop right now after an hour and start cutting metal you'd think nothing was wrong for the first 20 secs or so and then it would begin to stall. The motor certainly can't generate enough heat in that short a time to cause a problem unless a component on the board is failing?
I'm in a bit of a pickle, to say the least...I'm hoping that my son may find time to pop over later, not sure if he has his multitester at home or at work, I suspect the later, even then I have no idea what to look for. from what I have read I think a healthy winding should have a low ohms reading, that's about as far as I've got so far.
Kind regards
Pete
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 13:27:28 GMT
Pete I had a similar problem on my WM250V lathe a couple of weeks ago. In that case I traced it to one of the fuse holders not making contact properly with the ends of the fuse. I jury rigged it (Bodged!) to keep it going and bought a fuse holder off EBay. Worth a look. Dave thanks, Dave, I'll take a look Pete
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 15:21:30 GMT
Hi Dave
I took a look at the fuse holder, seems ok... I note you said 'holders' and that the wiring diagram in the manual that you kindly sent shows two holders on the drawing too and yet the photo's in the same manual that shows the rear of the box seem to match mine with only the one 'holder'?
Not sure if the design changed over the years or that I just can't see the other holder? I took a look at the manual's troubleshooting chart, the only suggested solution that's given for a stalled motor is to replace/repair the motor, no mention of a possible fault in the electronics and so perhaps I can rule the electronic board out?
If I get no joy in getting the motor to run properly over the weekend I may take the risk and just order a new motor, if there was a company near to me who could fix it I'd try that but sending things off in the post in the present climate will probably take too long.
Still trying ...
Pete
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Post by silverfox on Jul 4, 2020 17:37:11 GMT
Daft as it seems Maidenhead isn't a million miles away and with the M25/4 you might be able to do it in 45 mins ( Best we did was South Ruislip Statiom to Bracknell in 35mins In Fact when we were forced to suffer Wembley Stadium as a temporary home, We actually were home in just under the hour from the final whistle ( seat location and exit really helped) out of the ground in under 20 seconds
Back to Electrics I have taken my Crompton to be repaired there. Really confident as it is one of those business that should be in a place like Beamish or Black Country museum. No shiny reception and free coffee
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Post by chris vine on Jul 4, 2020 17:45:31 GMT
Hi Pete,
With all the trouble you have already had (and others), I am beginning to think you might be better to make an adaptor plate to fit a different motor and speed controller. An industrial control unit will be much better than the supplied one (the Newton Tesla ones, Mitsubishi, give more or less full talk down to a very low speed). It isn't as though the motor and controller are integrated into CNC software etc. That would force to you replace it with the correct parts!
Other thoughts for the electrics: I wonder if something is getting hot and stopping working. You used to be able to buy a freezing spray to spray on components to cool them. Then if it starts working again, you have found the culprit!!
Chris.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2020 17:55:46 GMT
Might be an option...I'll see what the delivery time is when I talk to them Monday...Maidenhead?... I see Chiddingfold on their address?....is that the same?... problem is, that part of the country south of Guildford is a nightmare to drive too....I was based at Dunsfold on a film for 3 months...got digs as driving there each day way a no go.
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