Black Five Rebuild Diary

[michaelfive]

Hi Modelengineers

I'm from Bern, Switzerland and just bought a Black 5 project which was originaly built from a Modelworks kit and therefore comes with the flaws of those kits.
Hope to find some help here, when things get complicated in the future, since the Modelworks kits seam to be more whidespread in the UK than in Switzerland and Germany.

Best,

Michael

[oldnorton]

Hi Michael

Welcome to the forum. There are a few 5" Black 5 builders here, I should be one of them at the moment but I am finishing a 5" Britannia first.

Interestingly, I don't come across many Modelworks Black 5s, whereas there are several Modelworks Britannias about. Some of the jobs you will look at will include pistons and valves and here the issues might be similar to those for the Britannia. So you could search for those to read up on.

Modelworks will have based their design upon an existing set of drawings. Now I don't know for sure but I would guess that this would be the Don Young drawings set. If they did, then many of the dimensions will be identical, but you might find various parts now have metric dimensions (e.g cylinder bores).
It does mean that a set of Don Young's drawings will be very helpful and I think the only supplier of these is Reeves.

You must tell us at some stage whether you plan a strip down to the last nut and bolt, or a working repair and sort out.

Best wishes

Norm

[michaelfive]

Thanks for the welcome, Norm.
For now I planned to do more of a working repair / refit, starting with the valve bobbins, the piston and the valve gear. But depending on the condition the engine is in and how the paintwork looks, I might reconsider. I need to admit, that due to the Corona situation, I only saw photos of the locomotive. Some might say it's dumb to buy based on photos... but no risk no fun, and I needed a winter project!

[timb]

Welcome Michael!

We all like photos!! There are a few 'HOW TO's' on posting photos so please feel free!

Tim

[dscott]

Welcome Michael,

Yes I also have masses of Five Bits including a ready built tender sat in our sitting room Pretending to be a seat with a Chinese Cushion on it. Every Locomotive model design needs reworking to sort out the servicing and also the painting.

Except for Ken Swan Designs.

There are some lovely ideas in Twin Sisters a 2F Coal Tank LMS. London Midland and Scottish.
False rivets holding the smokebox in place.
Black Five has 32 all round which pointed out on here, are best false with 2 or 4 bigger ones holding it in place from underneath.

Very readable is Roger Froud's 1501 which is almost a Novel on a build. Speedy.

Best Regards
David and Lily.

[ilvaporista]

Welcome from just over the border in Italy (Turin area).
No experience of Modelworks bits but I do have an old set of Don Young's Black 5 drawings that I can dig out if you need any dimensions.

[michaelfive]

Thank you all for the warm welcome and your offer to help out with drawings and tips. As soon as I receive the shipment with the engine, i will post some pictures!

[Deleted]

Welcome to the forum Michael...

Pete

[JonL]

Welcome! I have family in Lenzburg and Zurich, I love Switzerland very much. I look forward to seeing your work.

[michaelfive]

I just received the engine and i tried to post pictures as promised. Unfortunately it seams that i'm to dumb to include pictures in my post. (will try it again later from my PC)
Well, since i bought the engine from Station Road Steam you can find some pictures on theire website: www.stationroadsteam.com/5-inch-gauge-lms-black-5-4-6-0-stock-code-7711/
I already have some questions that you folks might help:
- Is there a known source for the original assembly drawings of these Modelworks kits?
- Looks like there was a factory update kit for the valve gear that this engine was not equipped with. Does anybody have the dimmensions of the updated valve gear parts?

Thanks for your help!

[oldnorton]

You have got a nice engine that will have not been over messed with. They are more of a problem if someone gets their hands on one and tries to fix it, but makes things worse. Mike from Station Road says it is 'asmatic' which suggests that he has air tested it. You could connect it to an air supply, put the wheels on rollers and confirm for your self. Then flood the cylinder inlets with thick oil and see if it improves.

I don't think the original Modelworks assembly drawings will help a lot. You might be able to get a set from Model Engineers Emporium as they seem to have collected all the left over Modelworks Black 5 parts.

I don't know what the proposed changes for the valve gear were. I suspect you are going to have to work out what you want to do and design the changes yourself. I suggest that you plan to take off the cylinder blocks and be prepared to make new pistons, rings, valve bobbins and rings for those. Have a search for John Baguley's writings here and on his website where he does the same work on a Britannia. You might have to check the cylinder bores for corrosion. Also the piston valve liners for correct seal in the cylinder blocks.

Hope the above does not sound too daunting. Once that it done do the air test again and then try steaming it, but lots of safety issues to confirm first if you are new to steaming?

Best wishes

Norm

[michaelfive]

Oct 16, 2020 16:48:07 GMT oldnorton said:

You have got a nice engine that will have not been over messed with. They are more of a problem if someone gets their hands on one and tries to fix it, but makes things worse. Mike from Station Road says it is 'asmatic' which suggests that he has air tested it. You could connect it to an air supply, put the wheels on rollers and confirm for your self. Then flood the cylinder inlets with thick oil and see if it improves.

I don't think the original Modelworks assembly drawings will help a lot. You might be able to get a set from Model Engineers Emporium as they seem to have collected all the left over Modelworks Black 5 parts.

I don't know what the proposed changes for the valve gear were. I suspect you are going to have to work out what you want to do and design the changes yourself. I suggest that you plan to take off the cylinder blocks and be prepared to make new pistons, rings, valve bobbins and rings for those. Have a search for John Baguley's writings here and on his website where he does the same work on a Britannia. You might have to check the cylinder bores for corrosion. Also the piston valve liners for correct seal in the cylinder blocks.

Hope the above does not sound too daunting. Once that it done do the air test again and then try steaming it, but lots of safety issues to confirm first if you are new to steaming?

Best wishes

Norm

Thanks for your inputs. I will check with Model Engineers Emporium. I read a lot about walscharts gear and would like to simulate the valve gear of the engine. I was hopeing that the drawings would help getting the dimmensions of the gear without measuring the whole engine out.
I already tried running it on air. There is a constant air flow to the exhaust, no matter what position the valve is at. The valve bobbins seamed not to seal at all. t
Taking one out, confirmed that the valve piston rings are really loose fit. I will start the endeavour with making new bobbins with ptfe tires. You are right, i'm new to model engineering but I used to drive 7 1/4 inch gauge engines in a nearby public park as teenager. Thus I'm familiar with steaming but probably a bit out of practise.

[JonL]

PTFE expands quite a lot when hot and then shrinks again when cold. Roger looked into the subject and ended up using a substance called Fluroscint (I think thats the right spelling), a PTFE compound which has much lower expansion rates and therefore would appear to be better for piston valve bobbin seals.

Please bear in mind I am the forum newbie and am trying to learn but am not as up to speed as the others, so I won't be offended if you take my words with a pinch of salt!

Jon.

[michaelfive]

Oct 16, 2020 21:15:25 GMT JonL said:

PTFE expands quite a lot when hot and then shrinks again when cold. Roger looked into the subject and ended up using a substance called Fluroscint (I think thats the right spelling), a PTFE compound which has much lower expansion rates and therefore would appear to be better for piston valve bobbin seals.

Please bear in mind I am the forum newbie and am trying to learn but am not as up to speed as the others, so I won't be offended if you take my words with a pinch of salt!

Jon.

Thanks for your input Jon. I will give graphite loaded PTFE a chance. I used that in the past for a similar application in a biotech device. (not with steam but the same temperature range) If i won't be able to control the expansion i will try Fluroscint.

[michaelfive]

I ordered a copy of the assembly drawings and parts list from Engineers Emporium. Hope tgat will help to sort things out.
I removed the running boards in order to get a better view on the gear.
Everthing has a lot of play and really sloppy fit. And the links seam to touch the running board. At least the marks on the under surface of the board indicate that. Looks like there is more work to do than just fixing the valves and the cylinder pistons. Nevermind i was looking for a project, now i got one!

I think i'm going to post the progress of the rework on this forum.
Shall i start a new thread in the Black 5 section or just continue here?

[JonL]

A fresh thread provides a nice diary to look back on, and for people to follow from the start if they are new, so thats my suggestion.

[oldnorton]

Yes I agree with Nobby's thoughts. Perhaps good to choose a subject title that you can live with, and is your version of several other Black 5 thread titles!

But what you can do is edit the title for this thread and keep all the earlier comment, which is relevant and of interest. Just go into the edit button for your first contribution here, and you can completely rewrite the title.

Norm

[michaelfive]

It's been a while since my last post. But now i'm back and changed the name of the thread based on Norm's suggestion. I will try to post the progress of the rebuild here. But until now i was not able to move the thread to the "Black 5" or "General Chat" section. Maybe someone could point me to the right direction.

[michaelfive]

While is was waiting for the graphite loaded PTFE to arrive i had a lock at the sloppy valve gear and motion. I turned new stainless steel threaded bolts to replace the split pin scured bolts that connected the diffrend rods of the valve gear. I also reamed the holes of the rods in order to have a good fit of the special bolts.

The vlave crossheads also had a lot of play in all directions, the slippers were only fixed by a pin that was most probably glued in with locktite in the past. On one valve the pin got loose and fouled the valve guide until it get stuck in the hole of the guide. This lead to deformation of the valve crosshead mount. I readjusted everything and replaced the pins by a custom pins with a shoudler. The pins must now not be glued in anymore and are pervented from falling out of the bore.

The piston crossheads were very tight fit at one end a had a lot of play on the other end. Thus the slide bars were not mounted parallel, neighter in line with the cylinder bore. I fixed the problem by filing the mounts of the slide bars and the slidebars of the face not in contact with the crossheads. The crossheads move now freely and free of play.

Another thing I discovered is that the driving wheels have nearly 2mm lateral play. I wonder if this is intended? Maybe to drive along short radius curves?

I still don't know how to post pictures. Attachemnts are not possible and a link to google photos seams not to work eighter...

[dscott]

I am a past and present customer of Station Road and even visited their works to pick up a very nice Large Prairie Tank.
A 60th Birthday present last March.
Like The Steam Workshop a great bunch of people to deal with.
I tend to go for something well built with a nicely made Boiler.
Hence my Black 5 bits.
The tenders complete make a nice seat with a cushion on, parked in the living room!! Lily is very understanding.
A friend and fellow Reading Club member has a 9F also Modelworks.
On that the cylinders did not have sufficient ports so very bad results.
Massive boiler producing and to have it throttled at the last moment.
Yes there was a little hole.
Another favorite is to miss the opening area when the cover is in place. There being very little in the gap for the steam.
Machining the cover back and a file of the port then helps.
BUT taking off the motion and sorting does take some time.

Good luck with your model.

David and Lily.