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Post by Jock McFarlane on Oct 27, 2020 18:54:05 GMT
A 2 litre vessel filled with compressed air at 6 bar would contain 128 litres of air A 2 litre vessel filled with water at its boiling point for 6 bar (165C) could liberate 3400 litres of steam That is a staggering difference between air and steam. Does that mean if your loco runs on air OK it will do even better with steam ?
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barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 873
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Post by barlowworks on Oct 27, 2020 23:05:07 GMT
So a bike pump in the cab isn't going to work then.
Mike
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Post by delaplume on Oct 28, 2020 13:12:32 GMT
A flatulence-extraction pump linked to the Driver might do it ??-------- Trouble is, you'd have to start your Prep duties the night before with a double-dose of best Vindaloo Curry !!.....LoL !! ..... and chips !!
Ok--seriously now}------- Bearing in mind that all our engines obtain their energy from the release of heat contents ( thus steam is better than compressed air, per andyhigham )---as a concept would a high pressure steam vessel ( 500 to 1,000 psi ) with a 10 / 1 reducing valve feeding a standard regulator and cylinders work ??.....The idea would be to charge the HP vessel first via a removable gas fire then operate using the regulator as per normal....
I believe the LMS "Fury" failed due to mechanical reasons, the basic theory being quite sound ??
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,713
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Post by mbrown on Oct 28, 2020 13:38:20 GMT
Fury failed with burst tubes in the high pressure system - presumably because of difficulty making them tight enough with the technology of the day. The LNER "Hush Hush" loco (10,000) which had similar technology, also needed constant attention to tubes.
Would not the same, or similar, problems arise in model form? The testing requirement would have to be a great deal more rigorous than our standard boiler tests, for example - and I wonder how many of us would be confident in making our own boiler to work at such high pressures. Would the public want to ride behind our creations if they knew the pressures involved... We live in a culture which is (a) more risk averse than previous generations and (b) tends to evaluate risks very badly.
The more one goes into it, the harder it becomes to see these ideas as viable in the "real world". It also emphasises how beautifully fit for purpose the Stephensonian steam locomotive is! Malcolm
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on Oct 28, 2020 14:50:06 GMT
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 28, 2020 14:52:08 GMT
In my youth I was involved in the installation of the high pressure gas pipeline system working at 1000psi. The welding and testing systems were draconian, and, I suggest, beyond the average private owner.
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uuu
Elder Statesman
your message here...
Posts: 2,800
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Post by uuu on Oct 28, 2020 16:02:25 GMT
When Roger's finished with his test boiler, he can mount it on a loco chassis - forming the motor part of his electrically powered fireless system.
Wilf
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Post by andyhigham on Oct 28, 2020 16:26:27 GMT
Theoretically any liquified gas would work, after all water is liquified steam! I know that liquid nitrogen works, a number of years ago I was working at a Air Products, they had converted a Honda car engine into a single acting steam engine. They were driving it around the car park powered by a tank of liquid nitrogen.
A tank of propane would probably work too but the exhaust would be a bit dodgy
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Post by springcrocus on Oct 28, 2020 18:25:12 GMT
When Roger's finished with his test boiler, he can mount it on a loco chassis - forming the motor part of his electrically powered fireless system. Wilf Helluva long extension lead needed, though.
Regards, Steve
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Post by ettingtonliam on Oct 28, 2020 18:58:28 GMT
Generator set on a wagon behind the boiler wagon behind the driving trolley?
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Post by niels on Nov 15, 2020 20:22:46 GMT
The 5 inch gauge IOM locomotive at IMLEC 2019 made around 0.15 horsepowerhour work. The latest full size high pressure fireless locomotives could make around 25 hph per cubicmeter water/steam in pressure vessel. The IOM (Peveril?) locomotive can have around 6 litre within boiler outline and that is also 0.15 horsepowerhour. The steam/water starts being 150 bar or less than what divers have on their back. A fireless steam model locomotive is not totaly unrealistic.
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 15, 2020 20:45:13 GMT
I would go along the hydrogen peroxide and silver catalyst route. The catalyst converts the hydrogen peroxide to water and massive amounts of heat which turns the water into steam
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on Nov 15, 2020 21:19:20 GMT
I would go along the hydrogen peroxide and silver catalyst route. The catalyst converts the hydrogen peroxide to water and massive amounts of heat which turns the water into steam Hasn't that system not caused a few problems with torpedoes
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Post by delaplume on Nov 16, 2020 2:24:04 GMT
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on Nov 16, 2020 20:03:39 GMT
As apprentices (days of the dinosaurs) we were told "never, ever, allow oil or grease to contaminate coupling faces when connecting to oxygen bottles" It doesn't need HTP to cause uncontrolled problems.
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Post by andyhigham on Nov 16, 2020 20:20:49 GMT
Many years ago a friend of mine told me about an episode that happened while he was working in Holland. A tanker was delivering liquid oxygen, the driver was struggling to connect the delivery hose but it kept sticking, He went to the stores and got a handful of grease. They found large pieces of tanker but only small pieces of the driver
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Post by delaplume on Nov 16, 2020 20:55:30 GMT
There was in fact a "Fireless" loco at the Rainhill trials !!.................... any takers ??
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mbrown
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,713
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Post by mbrown on Nov 16, 2020 21:05:07 GMT
Cyclopede? One horse power...
Malcolm
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on Nov 19, 2020 13:42:19 GMT
So a 240v genny in the riding car powering a small immersion heater in the loco would be out then.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,902
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Post by JonL on Nov 19, 2020 14:01:47 GMT
I'm sure that would be possible, but even a small generator is quite a lump to pull around, and with an immersion heater big enough to generate any quantity of steam I don't imagine a small generator would be enough.
HTP sounds like a possibility... my grandad spoke of a hangar he worked on at Boscombe Down that was used for the SR53 that was made entirely out of non-ferrous materials and fasteners because the HTP didn't like it...
Also when I was on the flight line it was always us Greenies (avionics) that had to do the oxygen replenishment as we were less likely to have any oil/grease about our person. I hated that job, I didn't have to do it very often but I found it hair raising to say the least.
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