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Post by William A on Mar 1, 2021 21:41:31 GMT
Hello sir, the model engineer index www.itech.net.au/modelengineer/ suggests that Stowe was covered from Issues 4268-4356 ? I guess as above, I think I would be happier building something I actually wanted (a Schools and a King Arthur were my first ever O-gauge locos) even if it is more complex. I'm following a chap making a Sweet Pea on YouTube and he's alreay well into his second year of an hour or two a day, I'm not sure that building a simpler locomotive just for the experience is going to hold my passion for long enough. Obviously I don't want something so impossibly difficult that I can't make any headway at all, but is the Schools really more complex than any other loco with conjugated valve gear or four cylinders?
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Post by manofkent on Mar 1, 2021 21:57:40 GMT
Hi William.
I am planning my next loco, and have sort of settled on the 5" gauge schools Stowe. A fellow club member has lent me some of the Model Engineer magazines (2007 - 2009) in which the model is described. The measurung on the drawings is a mix of fractions and decimals which takes a bit of getting used to. I think it will be a challenging build, but i might simplify some of the detailed bits (real leaf springs on the driving wheels for example).
Laser cut frames are a definite.
I have an interest - my dad was a Southern steam driver ex Stewarts Lane. He would refer to these locos as a "school". As in "driving up Sole Street with a school, you had to be careful not to empty the firebox".
I hope you decide to build this model as well. I wont be able to start until the Autumn.
Joh
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Post by Cro on Mar 1, 2021 22:04:05 GMT
William,
You are also in luck, we have a stunning Schools class at Beech Hurst built by Doug Johnson but not to a publish design. The valve gear was designed by Doug & Les Clarke, it’s a stunning model and certainly the best I’ve seen around.
There was a schools design with G&S supplies a few years ago but I don’t know if they are marketing it anymore, I think it’s the same Stowe design you mention but I can’t remember.
Complicated engine but beautiful and powerful.
Adam
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Post by ejparrott on Mar 1, 2021 23:03:59 GMT
Sadly, William, a 5"g version of what you would like to build hasn't been published. Whether that be a SECR E, D, or L. Or a 5"g 'Schools', unless I am mistaken "Stowe" is 5" Gauge Schools. I've just drawn up and laser cut a bunch of parts for it, shipped to America this morning.
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Post by coniston on Mar 1, 2021 23:47:43 GMT
Sadly, William, a 5"g version of what you would like to build hasn't been published. Whether that be a SECR E, D, or L. Or a 5"g 'Schools', unless I am mistaken Neville Evans designed and described the build of the 5" Schools in ME IIRC just after the Penrhos Grange. Gerry Tull made his as the build was described. The drawings are in the ME articles, at least as mauch as you need to understand the complexity. It is a lovely loco and very well detailed, one that I also have a hankering to build. As I have said before it is a very personal decision as to which loco to build. There are many books and build descriptions of other locos that would be helpful for a beginner in tackling all the tasks necessary, you just need to look around, read as much as you can and study as many drawings and articles as you can find. Oh and keep asking questions here, I'm sure between us we can answer them. Chris D
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nonort
Part of the e-furniture
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Post by nonort on Mar 2, 2021 11:03:26 GMT
I have beside me as I write this a 5" Schools commission built to the Neville Evans Drawings? The guy who built it remarked that various bits bang into one another as drawn and there were several variants of the class which are missed in most of the books. As the engines were shopped they swapped cabs smoke boxes cylinders and tenders. I would humbly suggest that if you wish to build a Schools then pick one and a time of service and carefully check its state at that time. Best of luck.
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Post by coniston on Mar 2, 2021 14:13:01 GMT
Hello sir, the model engineer index www.itech.net.au/modelengineer/ suggests that Stowe was covered from Issues 4268-4356 ? I guess as above, I think I would be happier building something I actually wanted (a Schools and a King Arthur were my first ever O-gauge locos) even if it is more complex. I'm following a chap making a Sweet Pea on YouTube and he's alreay well into his second year of an hour or two a day, I'm not sure that building a simpler locomotive just for the experience is going to hold my passion for long enough. Obviously I don't want something so impossibly difficult that I can't make any headway at all, but is the Schools really more complex than any other loco with conjugated valve gear or four cylinders? You are absolutely right to build a loco you have a passion for. One of our club members, and friend of dad, on his retirement started model engineering having already been a volunteer on the Mid Hants Railway. He wanted to build a B1 but for whatever reason he started on a Simplex, I guess he either thought himself or was advised that it would be an easier build and he would gain the experience to build the B1. After 14 years and approaching his 80th birthday he finally completed the Simplex and succeeded in getting it running on steam, a great achievement in itself. He has given up on his first aim to build a B1 as he feels it would never get finished, I know he regrets the decision to build the Simplex and not the B1 as he now knows the difference in complexity and content is not so great. Nothing in building a miniature steam loco is impossibly difficult, it has all been done before and on this forum we have a multitude of skilled and experienced members who will give you all the help and guidance you need. Hopefully you can get to see the Schools at Beech Hurst in the near future to give you a bit of enthusiasm for the design. As it is a relatively new design loco it should not have some of the problems of the old LBSC and early Martin Evans designs e.g. valve gear design, boiler construction, trueness to scale etc. Keep on investigating and asking questions, best way to learn. Chris D Edit, the ME articles started at 4264 with an introduction but construction started with 4278, happy hunting.
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Post by andyhigham on Mar 2, 2021 14:45:29 GMT
According to Kozo Hiraoka in his books on building the Shay locomotive, all big jobs can be broken down into smaller simple jobs. Even a 3 cylinder crankshaft with eccentrics for stephensons valve gear, turned in one piece from a solid bar
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Post by William A on Mar 6, 2021 22:41:45 GMT
Again, thank you all - I very much look forward to getting to know the people and locomotives of Beech Hurst particularly. I wonder if it would be more beneficial to see some of the locos under my consideration in action, particularly if they are like to be so nearby! There is alot to admire from all suggestions and thoughts, and the idea that nothing is insurmountable is something that heartens me greatly.
I will keep a tab on this thread and if something jumps out at me I will ask a question, but if not I will try to avoid making a nuisance of myself until I have some material production to show off!
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Post by fubar123 on Mar 29, 2021 16:00:28 GMT
Jock - to be honest I've not thought much about braking arrangements at all, but I gather this will be something I can consider a bit further along in the build? Thank you both (John and Malcolm) for the offer of scans - I'm making my way through the series now and so I'm in no immediate need to get 6 and 7 but I thought I would put out the call just incase anyone had spares/scans laying around. All the very best, How you actually brake it in 5" I don't know. I was meaning that you would need to fit a dummy westinghouse pump to make it look right in NBR condition. I am pretty sure no one has made a working one for brakes. If you want to know the full story of the Glen and all its history the North British Railway Study Group is the place to go. And of course the 32 Glens were built specifically for the West Highland line which includes the Harry Potter viaduct. Regards JM Jock Many thanks for the information about the North British Railway Study Group , A real mine of good information . Chris
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Post by William A on Jul 20, 2021 12:10:41 GMT
EDIT: bad idea - please ignore.
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 20, 2021 12:36:37 GMT
Moving the axles upward to account for bigger wheels will affect MUCH more than pump and lubricator linkage! It will affect the cylinders, they will need to move upwards or change angle of inclination to keep the axle on the cylinder centre line. It will affect the valve gear, the relationship between axle, valve spindle and weighshaft is critical
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Post by William A on Jul 20, 2021 13:27:59 GMT
Ah so probably, in that case, best left well alone! Thank you Andy!
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Post by William A on Jan 30, 2022 1:30:25 GMT
Well, a rationalisation of my various projects has meant it's coming about time to actually make a decision on a 5" Gauge locomotive. Realistically, after some serious thought there are only two competitors: a Maid of Kent, or Don Young Hunslet. Front and centre is a desirable and achievable first large loco. Before I start applying wallet to vendors however - I have two questions: For an amateur, is it the most straightforwrd to simply build an inside-cylinder MoK with the joy valve gear? Or is there a compelling reason to use Don Young's re-worked stephenson valve gear?
Equipped with an axle pump and a jug of water at the ready to avoid the issues of injectors being finicky with hot water, could I get away with the Hunslet as a pleasure-park passenger hauler, or am I going to need to build a riding truck for coal and water also? It is attractive because I'm pretty sure I could fit a small loop in my garden as well!
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Post by jcsteam on Feb 1, 2022 0:57:15 GMT
Hi William,
For MOK joy valve gear is proven to work and is simple to make as opposed to stephensons which is a little bit more work. If you definitely want stephensons valve gear I would go with Don's write up, forgetting curlys layout.
On the hunslet, if you can get more use out of your investment of time and money having your own private railway in the garden then that would likely be the best course of action. But a garden railway is not a small undertaking of throwing some track on the ground, like the real thing it will require maintenance so make sure you have time in your week to spend an hour tidying it up, fallen leaves in winter, encroachment of greenery into the track bed area, movement of ballast and track. Build what you want to build, you seem to now have it down to two options. So it really should come down to which design (prototype engine) do you like most. As this will keep you going on the project even if its an hour every other night.
Seeing both types of engine in steam, and even if you are able and find an owner willing to let you have a drive to help you decide is worthwhile.
Good luck. I couldn't decide what engine to build, for a very long time, I seem to now be set on Doris and molly. Namely as I could have them in the same livery. Two sizes of engine on the same gauge. Thankfully they share a lot of the same basic components so I can make time saving in my setups for machining. Jon
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Post by davewoo on Feb 1, 2022 11:25:48 GMT
Model Engineers Laser sell a kit for a water carrier to fit on the front of a standard riding car, my friend built one in no time, like all MEL stuff it's well thought out and fits together well. I had a similar thing made out of half a thinners can and a tap when I built an engine and never got round to making a tender, not very elegant! I've relied solely on injectors for years ,apart from on Rob Roy, My Simplex tanks get quite warm and they still work, sometimes needing a fiddle in very hot weather, but never had to come off the track. Good filters and O ring clacks seem to help. Dave
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dscott
Elder Statesman
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Post by dscott on Feb 2, 2022 2:01:59 GMT
HUNSLETS. Here is one of ours... The more complete one but the other has all the bits ready except to finishing off the Boiler. We saw a lovely one at the Rugby Track which went very well. Superb I am told round tight curves in gardens. Do use steel wheels. The Problems. Reeves sell the castings. I made some patterns! David and Lily.
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Post by William A on Feb 6, 2022 19:24:23 GMT
Decision made, and lathe has been applied to metal, and the axle pump eccentric is taking form. I'm picking up a box of castings and bits, so that should give me a leg up. There will of course be some serious attention to be paid - I'm taking nothing for granted with previous machinists works. Not that my skills are beyond basic, but I want to start from a good foundation. Hopefully I'm taking the parts of someone who doesn't need them, rather than them trying to rip me off with bad parts - but either way I'm paying about half the cost of the included unmachined castings so anything more than that is a windfall.
While I'm sitting on my hands on that, I'm looking to assemble some materials for the rest of the build - I hope I can ask for your advice, particularly around the cost of materials choices:
For axleboxes I was going to machine from 1" slices of bar material. Will CI be fine for axleboxes (using mild steel axles) or should I really dig into my pocket for GM/PB axle box material? As an addendum, with my limited experience should I be going for one-piece or split boxes? I appreciate the latter is probably better practise, but this is my first 5" loco build so better safe than sorry.
Talking of CI, the cylinder and valve chest castings are CI, but the cylinder covers are GM - is it OK to have these dissimilar metals? If I have to make a choice, while I know gunmetal is 'better' it's another £250 I'd rather not spend - so would go with CI on the balance if not I think?
The build articles in 1948 didn't have the benefit of loctite - is that sufficient for tight fitting axles, or should I be looking at a press fit as per the original docs? If a press fit, Curly's log suggests quartering with the use of a square and scribing block, which makes sense - but suggests using the bed of a lathe/etc. to align on, and then 'press' - but, I have no way to press two 7" wheels while they're sitting on my lathe bed! Should I look into a an arbor press? He also suggests a multi-part crank axle that is pressed together. Is this a good idea in this day and age?
Thank you!
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Feb 6, 2022 19:41:24 GMT
I'd go cast iron for the axleboxes. It will be fine on its own but you could, if the sizes came out OK, to fit oilite bushes. These are quite cheap, and I've heard good reports. I'm going for cast iron with bronze bushes (as the drawings specified giant blocks of bronze which would have cost quite a bit) - I wish I'd know about oilite first, as a standard size would have saved pounds. Or just used the cast iron on its own. I'm going for solid (not split) boxes. If they wear out (highly unlikely for my expected use - and I have to finish the loco first ), I'll cut them off and make split ones for replacements. Axles - I'm using old car half shafts, as recommended by Ken Swan. He claims this is better stuff than mild steel - but I don't have enough knowledge to say otherwise. Wilf
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Post by William A on Feb 6, 2022 20:54:41 GMT
Wilf - cutting them off sounds a bit hairy so I'll have to take your word for that. I don't actually know how much running a loco (assuming fair-good maintenance) wears the axleboxes. I hadn't thought about bushes but you make a good point. LG2 gunmetal for the bushes on the driving wheels and tender (the bogie I believe is already complete) adds about £25 to the cost, so quite reasonable. Oilite is a bit more pricey as far as I can see and would only work for the drivers - worth it? For now I have omitted them and ordered enough Meehanite to machine both solid and split boxes.
If it turns out to be a better shout to fit bronze bushes then I'll do that before fitting them, and if I go with split boxes now then I can always replace with bronze ones in future.
I thought I had myself set up with material, drills and tools - but that was for 2.5" gauge and now everything needs to be sized up - the price of drills and reamers >1/2" is a bit eye watering!
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