A basic testing question

[darrene]

I'm extremely green when it comes to the world of live steam and boiler testing.

Am I correct in thinking;

A hydrostatic test is normally performed on a boiler when it's first built, to 2x working pressure. I assume this is a stress-functionality test to conclude whether said freshly-built boiler is structurally sound, before moving on to the potentially more dangerous steam test. This certification has a 4y time limit on it.

Once installed, the boiler would have both a hydrostatic and a steam test, to 1.5x working pressure. This tests not only the boiler for weakness (the hydraulic test) and the installation, to correct any issues with fittings. The certification having an annual time limit on it.

Is this simplification of the process essentially correct?

You'd normally expect a boiler which has passed a hydrostatic test to likely only show issues relating to fittings when going on to a steam test?

Thanks for your guidance

Darren

[uuu]

The steam test is not at 1.5x pressure. One of the functions of the steam test is to ensure the safety valves release at the rated pressure and that they can hold the boiler within 10% when the blower is on. And anther is to examine the water input systems (injectors, pumps) , level gauges and pressure gauge.

Other wise you're pretty much there.

It would be worth you getting hold of a copy of the test regime from your club. This might be it (I'll be shot down in flames if I've posted the wrong link): Boiler test code 2018

Wilf

Edit - it may be the regular 1.5 hydraulic test is at longer intervals than annually. And you never do a 2x again after the initial one.

[darrene]

Thanks Wilf.

Apologies for the typo. I should have written hydrostatic test to 1.5x and a steam test.
Thanks very much for the link. I'll have a gander at it. At the very least, it will give me a better understanding

What happens in the case of a boiler which passed its initial hydraulic test in let's say 2014, was installed into the loco and then the loco has sat unused?
Its original certificate would now be invalid so presumably it would need a new pressure test (1.5x this time)  hopefully this could still be done in-situ? I note the original has to be done before installation, cladding etc (which makes sense given that's the first test)

[uuu]

If you've got all the paperwork and the inspector is happy, it should not be necessary to do another 2x test. The periodic 1.5x test is only done naked occasionally. Para 9.1 refers to your situation:

9 Examination – Previously Tested Boilers
9.1 Periodic examination and re-test of COPPER boilers of any
capacity may be carried out with the boiler mounted and clad for
as long as the Inspector considers that he can properly examine
and test it. Where this is not the case the Inspector may require
the boiler cladding to be removed, although this would not normally
be necessary at less than 10 year intervals.

As with all things boiler-related, it's YOUR inspector holds all the cards.

Wilf

[darrene]

Thank you again Wilf. That's great
Appreciate it's ultimately down to the boiler inspector

[uuu]

You might like to read this thread - the woes of a loco that had lost it's boiler paperwork. It all came out right in the end.

modeleng.proboards.com/thread/13353/problem-gauge-martin-evans-terrier

Wilf

[jo479]

Hydro test x 2 working pressure when first built,
Steam test every year, to test fittings and Safety Valves to working pressure plus 10%
Hydro test x 1 1/2 working pressure every 4 years from the date of the original test.
another hydro x 2 is only needed if you have modified or repaired the boiler in any way.
sadly some members have repaired a boiler and not let on, I've been testing a boiler and enquired about an obvious repair, the answer being "oh that. I was just putting a bit more solder on", and if he reads this he'll know who he is, I don't test his boilers any more, he actually asked another Tester to carry out a hydraulic test for him, on being asked why the boiler had been painted with red lead, he said I'd given him the OK to do that, so he had to remove it. Fortunately most Members are fine and obliging, but you do get the odd A*****le.

[smallbrother]

Not forgetting steel boilers need repeat 1.5xWP hydraulic tests every 2 years, although for some strange reason the first interval is 4 years.

Pete.

[jo479]

I never think of Steel Boilers, because they're mainly on Traction Engines and nobody in the Club has one (nowhere to run)

[darrene]

Thank you very much for the replies. It's been really useful in helping to understand 'the dark arts'

On a somewhat related note, is anyone able to give me an opinion on boiler kits? I'm in need of a 3.5" gauge boiler and I'd quite like to teach myself to make one. I note Reeves and Blackgates can supply kits. My preference would be for a Blackgates one as I think the value for money is slightly in their favour, particularly as everything is provided pre-flanged

Would it be feasible to teach myself to put one together, ideally under the guiding hand of an experienced member of my MES?

[uuu]

You'll have seen Steve's (springcrocus) thread on his Allchin traction engine. This is his second boiler. His first was an in-at-the-deep-end 5" Britannia - there's a thread on that loco, too. You'll see I helped a bit, but wasn't so much a "guiding hand of an experienced member", as I'd not built a boiler before either. Just easier with two.

So yes, you can teach yourself.

Steve sourced copper tube and sheet, cut and flanged his own plates. So you don't need to start with a kit. Having not tried that route, I can't say if it's easier. (It would be a shame if you have to beat hell out of them to get them to fit, but I can't say if that's the case)

Wilf

[simplyloco]

I learnt a lot about building boilers when I made this one for my Brit. Trouble was, I didn't quite learn enough!

modeleng.proboards.com/thread/4116/brit-progress-boiler-plates

[Deleted]

Hi Darren

thinking to our discussion the other day on a certain loco, if it is this which you are thinking of making yourself I'd advise not to. It has a tubed combustion chamber which is not only a more difficult design to make but if it develops a leak in the chamber it becomes scrap. I'm in regular contact with a chap in Aus who's building a 5 " Flying Scotsman, he built the boiler but on completion, it sprung a leak in the combustion chamber. It was not repairable as confirmed by Paul Tompkins, perhaps the best boilermaker in the country. The poor chap was about to give up, the rest of the loco was more or less finished, I managed to persuade him to not give up and after introducing him to Paul, Paul kindly made him a new throatplate (the most difficult part) to the same design as mine and had it with him in Aus very quickly, less than 2 weeks I believe. This time he built a boiler ( had to be cleared as a new design under their boiler code) without the tubed combustion chamber which is coming along nicely.

So if we are talking of the loco discussed earlier, I would get some advice as to if another design can be used or if the combustion chamber part can be dropped. This would though mean it's a new design with its own difficulties in getting it passed, not IMHO something you want to do when new to the hobby.

Kind regards

Pete

[darrene]

Mar 30, 2021 17:53:30 GMT uuu said:

You'll have seen Steve's (springcrocus) thread on his Allchin traction engine. This is his second boiler. His first was an in-at-the-deep-end 5" Britannia - there's a thread on that loco, too. You'll see I helped a bit, but wasn't so much a "guiding hand of an experienced member", as I'd not built a boiler before either. Just easier with two.

So yes, you can teach yourself.

Steve sourced copper tube and sheet, cut and flanged his own plates. So you don't need to start with a kit. Having not tried that route, I can't say if it's easier. (It would be a shame if you have to beat hell out of them to get them to fit, but I can't say if that's the case)

Wilf

Many thanks Wilf.

I have indeed. I first saw Steve's Britannia build when I was looking at my smaller version. I am astonished by the quality of his builds (as I am with so many on here!) It's properly inspirational to see what can be achieved with determination and a hefty dose of natural ability!

Although learning to braze (well) is something I would need to learn it's probably a quicker skill to acquire than machining, which is also on the to-learn list.

Slightly cheaper on the equipment side too

I'd want to build up my skills on offcuts of pipe and sheet until I was confident. If I was self-teaching, maybe try a smaller cheaper one first before potentially wrecking the more costly 'real thing' With someone alongside to make sucking noises through their teeth, I'd probably dive straight into the proper boiler once I'd got my technique down.

I've watched some very informative boiler making videos and noted the hide-hammer flange bashing. With a decent former it's probably not too onerous. I'm told the Blackgates boilers kits are very good quality and being pre-flanged, it takes one more area of concern away.

[darrene]

Mar 30, 2021 18:50:03 GMT simplyloco said:

I learnt a lot about building boilers when I made this one for my Brit. Trouble was, I didn't quite learn enough!

modeleng.proboards.com/thread/4116/brit-progress-boiler-plates

I thoroughly enjoyed reading that thread which was another of my Brit-learning exercises. The work that went into that boiler was lovely.

It was particularly reassuring to read about the issues that were encountered and how they were overcome. Knowing such lovely work is the result of such trials and tribulations is all the more encouraging

[darrene]

Mar 30, 2021 18:57:29 GMT @greenglade said:

Hi Darren

thinking to our discussion the other day on a certain loco, if it is this which you are thinking of making yourself I'd advise not to. It has a tubed combustion chamber which is not only a more difficult design to make but if it develops a leak in the chamber it becomes scrap. I'm in regular contact with a chap in Aus who's building a 5 " Flying Scotsman, he built the boiler but on completion, it sprung a leak in the combustion chamber. It was not repairable as confirmed by Paul Tompkins, perhaps the best boilermaker in the country. The poor chap was about to give up, the rest of the loco was more or less finished, I managed to persuade him to not give up and after introducing him to Paul, Paul kindly made him a new throatplate (the most difficult part) to the same design as mine and had it with him in Aus very quickly, less than 2 weeks I believe. This time he built a boiler ( had to be cleared as a new design under their boiler code) without the tubed combustion chamber which is coming along nicely.

So if we are talking of the loco discussed earlier, I would get some advice as to if another design can be used or if the combustion chamber part can be dropped. This would though mean it's a new design with its own difficulties in getting it passed, not IMHO something you want to do when new to the hobby.

Kind regards

Pete

Hi Pete,

Thanks for the cautionary tale and honest advice, it's very much appreciated.

This is in fact yet ANOTHER loco   and I don't know enough about its boiler design to know whether that makes it better or worse. It's from the LBSC stable which in itself may be a case of 'nuff said'!

The boiler in question is a Lickham Hall. I have a chassis in need of one. I have asked Western Steam and Blackgates for quotes for a boiler and a boiler kit respectively so I'll see how they compare. Most of the cost is obviously in the work rather than the materials. Once I've seen the drawings (unless anyone can advise here) I suppose I may be in more of a position to assess how much of a challenge making the kit even with help, might be...

[ettingtonliam]

Reeves boiler kits won't have flanged plates, simply because they sold all their flanging plates several years ago!

I bought my boiler materials (not a kit) from Keatly Metals in Birmingham for about 1/3rd the price of a boiler kit. Yes, you have to cut out the plates to shape, but that isn't difficult is it?

[darrene]

Mar 31, 2021 8:22:55 GMT ettingtonliam said:

Reeves boiler kits won't have flanged plates, simply because they sold all their flanging plates several years ago!

I bought my boiler materials (not a kit) from Keatly Metals in Birmingham for about 1/3rd the price of a boiler kit. Yes, you have to cut out the plates to shape, but that isn't difficult is it?

That's worth knowing re: Reeves. Thanks for the heads-up!

Good point, given the cost savings perhaps starting from sheet is worth it. I mean if cutting out the shapes presents too much of a challenge, boiler making is probably a non-starter

I've ordered a copy of Tubal Cains booking on soldering and brazing for a bit of bed time reading

[barlowworks]

Thinking back to people who have completed a boiler recently I can think of Roger and Jim in Australia who also built his own Britannia boiler in 5 inch gauge. My apologies if there are others. I always say you can’t have enough information.

Mike

[kipford]

Springcrocus (Steve) he has done two in the last couple of years, the Britannia and and Allchin.
Dave