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Post by andyhigham on Jul 19, 2021 16:38:37 GMT
I just had a realisation moment. The infrastructure requirements for Battery vehicles vs Hydrogen vehicles. The infrastructure is already in place for BEVs, the national grid. It would only require charge points to be installed. The infrastructure for hydrogen would require trucks with pressure vessels capable of holding 600-700 bar. Fuel stations would also require holding pressure vessels for the same pressure and connection systems to provide leak free connections to vehicles. Finally the hydrogen powered vehicle would also need to have a 600-700 bar pressure vessel
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Post by Roger on Jul 19, 2021 19:08:23 GMT
I just had a realisation moment. The infrastructure requirements for Battery vehicles vs Hydrogen vehicles. The infrastructure is already in place for BEVs, the national grid. It would only require charge points to be installed. The infrastructure for hydrogen would require trucks with pressure vessels capable of holding 600-700 bar. Fuel stations would also require holding pressure vessels for the same pressure and connection systems to provide leak free connections to vehicles. Finally the hydrogen powered vehicle would also need to have a 600-700 bar pressure vessel Absolutely, I pointed this out during the discussion. If you google it, you'll find that the National Grid says it has enough capacity already, they just need to manage the peaks. There are many ways to do this that I've mentioned already. Now, those who claim that Hydrogen can also be produced locally, fail to realise that it would take more than twice the electricity to do that. That would indeed be more than the National Grid could currently cope with. The electrolysis and compression processes are both inefficient. When you compress any gas, the temperature goes up, and that's lost to the atmosphere. It's a one way process, you don't get that back when you release the Hydrogen into the fuel cell. Not only do you lose the thermodynamic heat energy created during compression, you lose all of the energy required to increase the pressure. That's before you finally throw away about half in the fuel cell. This is why Elon Musk called it the "Dumbest idea ever".
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miken
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Post by miken on Jul 19, 2021 21:40:38 GMT
Don’t forget… There are lies, dam lies & statistics, ….. now there’s a new additional one…..political statistics! Our current government has just given EV buyers feebates for buying them, this will be taxpayer neutral as bigger vehicle, IC, buyers will pay more. Yeah right! An article last week in the local rag, had an article on EV’s saying there are approx 360 charging station in the whole of the country. A quick look at the app that they talked about for my city shows the vast majority of charging points are in motels & or hotels……unlikely to be available to most…….one I looked at was charging 0.25cents / kw PLUS the same again per minute. We have just been to our daughters for the weekend, 380kms one way, usually takes about 41/2 hrs with one coffee stop, about 1.45 hrs in, there is just one EV point in that town…….at a motel! Would think it would be pushing any EV to get to my daughters in one go, guess I’d have to stop at least a couple of times to “top up”. Just had a look on the app, there is ONLY 3 charge points on the route we use! A side track to couple of small towns gives a couple more, & the one bigger town gives has 8, once again at accommodation places & hard to tell if they are open to the public. HPEV,s appear to better idea down here if you want to travel any distance, to say nothing of want to tow a trailer, let alone the caravan. Cheers Kerrin According to Zap Map there are 15,795 public charging locations in the UK today. Approaching double the amount of petrol stations. 667 new charging devices commissioned in the last 30 days. 24,904 devices wit 42,779 connections. I though that sounded quite impressive progress and several years to go to improve on this. Edit, Oops, sorry Kerrin . Just realized you are in NZ. So not really relevant to you!
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Post by steamer5 on Jul 20, 2021 8:41:16 GMT
Hi Miken, All good, interesting info. Makes what’s happening here look pathetic! The government want EV’s the dominate vehicle here in a very short time frame. The max number of charge points a the charges station on the route to our daughters is 4! They range from plug in to 50kw Tesla, & not a lot of them! Getting the charging points in seems to have been over looked. Article in today’s rag that in the 19 days after the government feebate kicked in….a rebate of upto $8800….full electric reducing for hybrids…was 1300 units. But so far a brake down of who has brought them, private verse company, is unsure A couple of weeks back there was another article about the Department of Conservation purchasing a number of EV’s. One went to our most southern island, they aren’t connected to the South Island for power. Power is supplied via diesel generator!
Cheers Kerrin
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Post by chris vine on Jul 20, 2021 11:36:50 GMT
in terms of overcoming infrastructure problems of supplying energy for long distance lorries, agriculture, planes etc, then I would think that Hydrogen is a difficult nut to crack. However, if we have sufficient spare (green) electricity, then it should be possible to use the energy to manufacture a synthetic petrol or diesel. Then the supply infrastructure is already in place.
The Germans certainly made a synthetic petrol during the war. And, if you can use atmospheric CO2 to make the hydrocarbon fuel, then it would not impact on greenhouse gas.
Chris.
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 23, 2021 19:40:39 GMT
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the manufacturers and charge providers shared facilities? The technology is already out there, it only needs to put the power into a car and bill it to a customer. Mind you it took decades for mobile phone manufacturers to adopt a common charging connection, well all except apple
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Post by Roger on Jul 24, 2021 8:37:27 GMT
Wouldn't it be wonderful if all the manufacturers and charge providers shared facilities? The technology is already out there, it only needs to put the power into a car and bill it to a customer. Mind you it took decades for mobile phone manufacturers to adopt a common charging connection, well all except apple Indeed it would. Tesla were the first, so they invented their own because there wasn't a standard. There's no way they are going to change theirs now, there are more of those than any other out there. Frankly it's madness for the different standards to be out there, it does make you wonder what these people were thinking of. I guess they are all arrogant enough to assume that theirs will be universally adopted in the end. I can't see that happening. The other issue is standardisation of payments and accounts. Each company has its own way of doing it, and if you want to use third party chargers, you need multiple accounts and apps. Much of this is flaky, so you can be left unable to charge. I think this is why people charge whenever they can, regardless of whether they need to at that moment or not. I'm sure this will change as they shake out the bugs, but it must be infuriating. Tesla have absolutely nailed this, you just plug in and walk away. That's how it should be for everyone. I don't think customers will tolerate this situation for long, something will have to give.
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jem
Elder Statesman
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Post by jem on Jul 24, 2021 16:48:55 GMT
They haven't even managed to standardize nuts and bolts world wide electric sockets etc etc , so i don't believe they will standardize these any time soon!
If you run out of petrol on the road, you might have a spare can in the back, or you can go to a petrol station and buy a can. if you run out of battery power, you have had it. Many people do run out of petrol, so that is going to be a big problem for electric vehicles, and it will certainly happen, for all sorts of reasons!!!!!!!
Jem
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Post by Roger on Jul 24, 2021 18:36:03 GMT
They haven't even managed to standardize nuts and bolts world wide electric sockets etc etc , so i don't believe they will standardize these any time soon! If you run out of petrol on the road, you might have a spare can in the back, or you can go to a petrol station and buy a can. if you run out of battery power, you have had it. Many people do run out of petrol, so that is going to be a big problem for electric vehicles, and it will certainly happen, for all sorts of reasons!!!!!!! Jem People certainly do run out. The recovery vehicles will all have methods of quickly charging vehicles enough to get to a charging point.
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Jul 24, 2021 19:15:48 GMT
I used to work at a filling station in my youth. People who had run out nearby were sold a pint of fuel in an old oil can. That way, they had to come back to us to fill up, they couldn't drive any distance.
The AA website says this about running out: "Battery run out? We'll tow you to a charging point or your destination – whichever's nearer." I suppose if they took that literally, and there were no facilities at your destination, you might still be in trouble.
The RAC have Roger's idea: "We broke new ground in 2019 by developing the first lightweight, mobile electric vehicle (EV) charger capable of giving stranded out-of-charge vehicles enough power to get to a nearby charge point. Importantly, the RAC’s engine-driven system removes the need to carry heavy, bulky batteries that have to be recharged after each use."
Wilf
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2021 14:09:19 GMT
sorry.. couldn't resist this one from FB..... Quote: All the Teslas in Hope, B.C., in line waiting 2.5 hours for a charger to continue on to Vancouver. I have no idea if factual or not, but it is funny... Pete
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Post by Roger on Jul 31, 2021 15:30:05 GMT
sorry.. couldn't resist this one from FB..... Quote: All the Teslas in Hope, B.C., in line waiting 2.5 hours for a charger to continue on to Vancouver. I have no idea if factual or not, but it is funny... Pete No different to the queues we've seen at petrol stations during a crisis. Evs always attract negative press, even when it's completely unjustified. Every fire or accident is pored over, disregarding the fact that more happen per mile for non EVs. It just goes with the territory. Personally I don't find anyone being inconvenienced funny. I very much doubt if this is true, there must be other chargers in the area.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2021 15:37:37 GMT
No idea...I think it's pretty remote, another comment made was pointing out that the one solitary EV charving point on I assume a nearby mount is powered by a diesel generator?...🤣🤣🤣
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weary
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Post by weary on Jul 31, 2021 15:56:39 GMT
As so often with the 'net. That pic, above, is not quite as it has been presented. Turns out the Hope (B.C. Canada), a town with a population of 6200, and something of a hub for local and national roads, is a bit of a magnet for electric vehicles as it has "more than 30 charging outlets" (source linked in next paragraph), which include 22 Tesla 'superchargers'. The pic was taken on Canada Day (a national holiday) when the Tesla Owner's Club had a 'meet-up' before the most recent batch of 12 super-chargers came on-line. A quick google of appropriate words gives the story. This link gives some background. Happy motoring - to all! Phil
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Post by Roger on Jul 31, 2021 16:10:16 GMT
Early adopters of any new product always suffer teething problems. Early adopters of petrol cars had to go to a hardware store to buy cans of petrol. Doubtless the horse riders thought that was funny too. I don't want to be that negative person. This is how products and services develop. Suppliers learn what's required, and roll out the necessary infrastructure.
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Aug 3, 2021 19:01:43 GMT
First impressions of my new little EV:
I'm charging it for the first time at home tonight. I've had a couple of free top-ups at local supermarkets. One was limited to 15 minutes, but the other was unrestricted. With free wifi, the chap in the next bay was watching a film, so getting quite a good freebie.
Although on paper the 0-60 acceleration is modest, on the road the instant go makes leaping out of junctions, or overtaking, a joy.
Wilf
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Post by keith1500 on Aug 3, 2021 20:34:51 GMT
Wilf
Keep us posted it sounds fun.
Seriously, let us know how you get on with charging etc and whether you can charge on a cheap night time tariff if one exists anymore etc. And your distances.
It would be nice to hear some feedback.
Keith
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
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Post by JonL on Aug 3, 2021 20:45:09 GMT
I think for all the reviews and reports of the magazines and such, it is our peers that will give us the best first hand input on how these things work out. Nothing beats first hand experience.
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Post by Roger on Aug 4, 2021 7:23:51 GMT
Here's an interesting set of graphs starting at timestamp 7:26 showing what's happening to the market share of Tesla versus all other vehicles, ICE included. In the USA, the Tesla Model 3 outsells the BMW 3 series by a factor of two. Not bad for the new kid on the block, taking on cars that have had a century of development. Clearly those buyers think its range and performance are more than adequate.
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uuu
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Post by uuu on Aug 4, 2021 7:49:18 GMT
A comment on modern cars in general. Everything seems to be getting more complicated. Many of the car's systems are now controlled from the central touch-screen.
Fortunately I'm OK with IT in the main (20 years of computer programming at work helps), but the handbook is 320 pages of gobbledegook. The chaps in the garage spent quite a while scrolling through the menus trying to find how to re-enable the passenger airbag.
I was reversing on my drive, and opened the door to see where the back of the car had got to. Not allowed. The car automatically engaged the handbrake and put the transmission in Park. Just because the month has not got an "R" in it.
Even things with a dedicated switch have pre-conditions and exceptions to their behaviour. The handbrake take three pages of instructions. Locking and unlocking the car 11 pages (I still haven't got the hang of this yet - example "open the door using the mechanical key (A) inside the electronic key by turning the pawl anticlockwise (C) fig. 24 on the outside handle on the driver's side."). To check you've properly locked the car, you have to find a passer-by to hold into the key for you, just far enough away that the car can't detect it. "Can you move back a bit more please!" Cruise control is 23 pages - I'll give that a miss for the moment.
For things that really need no explanation, impenetrable tech-speak gives way to patronising diagrams. How to plug the car in at home: Kids drawing of house, symbol of plug, arrow from plug towards house. How to unplug: Kids drawing of house, symbol of plug, arrow away from house. Maybe they've found my level - I seemed to do that OK on the first try.
Wilf
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