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Post by andyhigham on May 15, 2021 17:22:11 GMT
20 years ago a 10 year old car was a rarity, most had rusted away
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Post by andyhigham on May 15, 2021 17:43:04 GMT
My dad had a mini metro. At 5 years old it was jacked up to change a wheel, the jack went up, the car didn't. The chassis was completely rotten
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Post by ettingtonliam on May 15, 2021 18:37:31 GMT
20 years ago a 10 year old car was a rarity, most had rusted away When I started riving in 1967, and had my first vehicle (Austin A35 van) I scoured local scrap yards for the parts necessary to keep it going. Scrap cars were typically 10 years old with the bodies rotted out, and 70-80 thousnad miles on the clock. Engines might go 50 -60 thousand miles before needing major attention, but the larger makers such as Ford and BMC offered factory reconditioned engines (the BMC ones were called 'Gold Seal' and were - wait for it= sprayed gold!) at attractive prices. You could have a full engine, or a half engine, which was basically the block, crank, pistons and rods, but no cylinder head. A new or reconditioned engine had to be run in at speeds not exceeding 40mph for at least 1000 miles, and cars had signs on the back saying 'Running in. Please pass.' This lasted up to about 1980, when the practice seemed to stop. I recall about 1978 having to drive a new Morris Marina from Leicester to Newcastle on Tyne, with a maximum recommened speed of 40 mph. It didn't do much good, by the time it had 45 thousand on the clock it was on its second engine and third gearbox. Motoring was fun back then, but it did have its problems. On the other hand, there were plenty of small garages around, wooden or corrugated iron sheds, from which a man in oily overalls would emerge, to help if youy had problems. My current main dealer usually recons on a wait of about 3 weeks to get a car booked in for attention.
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Post by Roger on May 15, 2021 18:41:39 GMT
I agree Roger, today's models from any Marque are poorly built in comparison to the 80's. This is partly due to being computer designed where they are built to a price instead of built to last and being over engineered. Porsche are just as guilty except for their race bred models which are built to a different mantra altogether. Regarding diaognostics..'Bluedriver' is a great and cheap professionel tool which uses your mobile, can be bought for under £100. You can also get something like 'Streetwise' which is less than £20. Garages can't do this, they need to use the proper tools for a number of reasons...my son recently upgraded his kit, cost £5k... That's not what I was saying. Sure there are some marques, such as Mercedes that might be guilty of that, but not the Japanese ones. I think that the reliability of cars has been getting progressively better year on year. There was nothing special about the 80's when it comes to reliability. Computer aided design has allowed material to be put exactly where it's needed to meet the stresses it's going to meet and the thermal conductivity it has to deal with. If you compare that with bygone days, things like crankshafts breaking weren't uncommon, and cars overheating was a regular sight on hot days. We've come on in leaps and bounds since then. I know people like the idea of having big solidly built cars, but in reality, all you're doing is carrying unnecessary weight around. There's not one car built in the 80's I'd take off the production line in preference to anything today and take on a World tour. We take reliability for granted these days, but it's been hard won with Computers being at the forefront of that achievement.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 19:56:41 GMT
I can't agree with that Roger...cars today are not built to last, they are throw away items, this will become even more so with EV's. As for 80 cars on world tours...no problem...my own model Porsche was tested beyond anything built today. Tests involved high speed endurance for IIRC 4 months 19 days solid with average speed of 150mph. Another test was covering 250k miles in 12 months, car was then totally stripped and meassured. The engine components would have passed spec to be put into a brand new car, ie, zero wear. As for weight, I doubt there's many cars on the road today that weigh less than mine at 1260kg, certainly no Porsches as they have crazy safety rules/features and yet the NCAP crash test is only 50kph, my car was designed for it's occupants to be able to walk away from a 60mph head on crash. One of only two cars to pass this NCAP test before the EU was forced to drop this test as other manufacturers couldn't build cars to beat it. There's a guy in Canada who in the 70's bought a brand new 911 turbo as his company car it has now covered over 800k km on it's original engine etc...
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Post by ettingtonliam on May 15, 2021 20:11:23 GMT
Yes, but you are talking about a Porsche. A different kettle of fish to the Austins, Morrisses, Fords, Vauxhalls etc that most of us had. The one thing that could be said of them is that most components could be taken apart, cleaned and repaired, unlike the sealed items of today which are intended to be thrown away and replaced when they fail. Very little about my Series 2 Landrover that couldn't be totally stripped down, including the wiper motor.
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 20:30:46 GMT
Yes, but you are talking about a Porsche. A different kettle of fish to the Austins, Morrisses, Fords, Vauxhalls etc that most of us had. The one thing that could be said of them is that most components could be taken apart, cleaned and repaired, unlike the sealed items of today which are intended to be thrown away and replaced when they fail. Very little about my Series 2 Landrover that couldn't be totally stripped down, including the wiper motor. I totally agree, especially with the series 2 landrover...I used to have a LWB 109 Series 2A...that thing was built to not only last but repaired anywhere in the world. I loved that vehicle, used to go on a driving holiday with 4 kids in the back, bench seats with no belts. 5th child (baby) sat in the front between me and the wife in a child seat..kids loved it on long journeys, even with a large pram in the back...
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Post by Roger on May 15, 2021 21:26:50 GMT
I can't agree with that Roger...cars today are not built to last, they are throw away items, this will become even more so with EV's. As for 80 cars on world tours...no problem...my own model Porsche was tested beyond anything built today. Tests involved high speed endurance for IIRC 4 months 19 days solid with average speed of 150mph. Another test was covering 250k miles in 12 months, car was then totally stripped and meassured. The engine components would have passed spec to be put into a brand new car, ie, zero wear. As for weight, I doubt there's many cars on the road today that weigh less than mine at 1260kg, certainly no Porsches as they have crazy safety rules/features and yet the NCAP crash test is only 50kph, my car was designed for it's occupants to be able to walk away from a 60mph head on crash. One of only two cars to pass this NCAP test before the EU was forced to drop this test as other manufacturers couldn't build cars to beat it. There's a guy in Canada who in the 70's bought a brand new 911 turbo as his company car it has now covered over 800k km on it's original engine etc... It's not about being built to last though, it's about maximum reliability for the intended lifetime of the vehicle. The cars of the seventies would be lucky to get 100,000 miles out of the engines, and they were rusted out by then anyway. Yes, they could be rebuilt and resurrected to last much longer, but that's not the point. Cars nowadays easily get 200,000 miles from an engine, and by the time the car has done around 300,000miles, it's all about finished. That's really not a big deal. There's no point in having some parts of the car that outlast others by a factor of two or three to one. That's just poor design. Again, I doubt if your Porsche was tested starting at -40C or +40C, even if it was given a thorough pounding around a track. There's more to testing than that. There are many examples of old cars that had very good engine lives, but that's just statistics. I'd like to bet that there's a far greater proportion of today's vehicles that achieve long lives compared to the past. I also strongly disagree about EVs being throw away items. They're likely to go on to twice the average mileage of an IC vehicle. 500,000 miles+ is likely to be the norm since there's much less to go wrong. Most cars are scrapped because of Engine and transmission issues, and that's not going to be the case for EVs. You simply can't make the case that cars made by more automation, computer controlled inspection and testing are less reliable than old methods. I'd like to see the data that backs up that view.
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Post by Roger on May 15, 2021 21:42:43 GMT
Yes, but you are talking about a Porsche. A different kettle of fish to the Austins, Morrisses, Fords, Vauxhalls etc that most of us had. The one thing that could be said of them is that most components could be taken apart, cleaned and repaired, unlike the sealed items of today which are intended to be thrown away and replaced when they fail. Very little about my Series 2 Landrover that couldn't be totally stripped down, including the wiper motor. Ah yes, but if they don't fail, it's irrelevant, and that's what modern designs aim for. The Landrover is designed for failure. It's a good job you can take it all apart, because you're going to be doing it a lot. Modern cars have more sealed parts because they can be. The unreliable parts such as points, distributors, coils, bowden cables and such like have been replaced with things that generally last the lifetime of the vehicle. You can't get inside them because you don't need to. On those rare occasions you do need it replaced, it's often not overly expensive anyway. If you're cunning, you can often get them apart and fix things yourself if you're so inclined. You only have to look at the warranties and service intervals on modern cars to see the confidence the manufactures have. Can you imagine a 1970's Land Rover with the same warranty as a Kia?
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2021 22:02:37 GMT
Hmm..Roger...modern cars, especially EV's are not built to last...battery life is very short, and there are already fields full of them..they can't be scrapped as no recycling firm will touch them because of no way to dispose of the batteries. Modern cars are forever breaking down, ask any garage..as i said because of computers they are built to a much closer cost, less allowance for wear and tear and thus they fail...often...my Porsche has 220k on the clock...and that's on a modified engine...there are other classic cars out there with well over a million on the original engine.
As the saying goes, 'they don't build them like they used too' and the reason is the computer and money...you can't count british classic cars..the BL days put paid to any sense of 'quality'
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Post by andyhigham on May 15, 2021 22:48:22 GMT
3 of my last 4 vehicles 1990 Lexus 300,000 + miles 2006 Audi A6 220,000 miles 2006 Toyota Hiace van 280,000 miles All three went through MOTs with no advisories. I believe that the Japanese imports in the 70s and 80s forced European manufacturers to up their game
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Post by andyhigham on May 15, 2021 23:09:40 GMT
The other of my last 4 cars was a Range Rover P38 4.6L petrol, I can't remember the mileage, I can remember the fuel consumption though 10-15 MPG It was great fun to drive and comfortable, though not in the same league as the Ls400 Current car is a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV, a very competent car, competent but completely without soul. What car would I buy now? My head says something electric, my right foot says electric, that massive wave of torque and acceleration. My heart says V8
PS the Volvo subsidiary Polestar produce an electric car based on the XC60 platform. £45,000 4 wheel drive 0-60 4.5 secs. That is a lot of performance per £
PPS thee letters that strike fear into Porsche owners IMS
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Post by Roger on May 15, 2021 23:18:04 GMT
Hmm..Roger...modern cars, especially EV's are not built to last...battery life is very short, and there are already fields full of them..they can't be scrapped as no recycling firm will touch them because of no way to dispose of the batteries. Modern cars are forever breaking down, ask any garage..as i said because of computers they are built to a much closer cost, less allowance for wear and tear and thus they fail...often...my Porsche has 220k on the clock...and that's on a modified engine...there are other classic cars out there with well over a million on the original engine. As the saying goes, 'they don't build them like they used too' and the reason is the computer and money...you can't count british classic cars..the BL days put paid to any sense of 'quality' You can't really say much about EVs in terms of lifetime, because the only ones that are getting old are the poor first generation models such as the Nissan Leaf. Most car manufacturers are building their first attempts, so it's hardly fair to judge what's effectively a Model T Ford against 100 years of IC engine tech. The whole issue if recycling is going to be key for harvesting the raw materials for new batteries, something which is being seriously evaluated as an essential industry. Again, you're looking at a virgin industry, and you can't extrapolate what you see now to where we will soon be when production really starts to take off. This is a disruptive technlology, and it's going to take time to settle down. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree about the reliability of modern cars. Personally, I think the statistics speak for themselves. Independent garages moan because they've been deliberately sidelined by main dealers who know that their bread and butter is servicing. This is why Tesla has the upper hand. They don't have a dealer network because the cash cow of regular IC engine servicing isn't a viable business model for EVs. If you go to a main dealer, they're going to try to sell you an IC car for that very reason. There's nothing in it for them to sell you and EV. The long term lifespan of second generation EV batteries is proving to be much better than most people expected. With a decent original range, older vehicles will just be demoted to second runabout cars that don't need to go more than 100 miles on a charge. There will be a healthy market for luxury vehicles with reduced range, and those could eventually reach astronomic mileages and very long life span. Battery tech is only going to improve, with longer life, longer range and lower weight. The future of EVs is only going to get better. When you consider how little time there's been since the first viable EV to what we already have, it's clear to me that the future is going to be very different to the picture you paint. The certainly don't build them like they used to, because they weren't ever built that well. Quality is what you get from repeatable automation and robots, not human workers. You've only got to look at hand built Sports Cars and Kit Cars to see what happens when you have too many humans in the loop. Keeping most old Classic Cars on the road is fine if they are just for Sunny days. Using them for your daily drive soon exposes them for what they really are, mostly unreliable and troublesome.
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on May 16, 2021 1:23:28 GMT
YES I am becoming a fan of Electric Vihicles and now own TWO of them. He jokes. We need to add SOUND but with this and a choice of BRUM BRUM BRUM. "So that's a LEAF in white, Red trim, alloy wheels, AND THE DODGE CHARGER sound system! SIR!" Turn heads on the School run! If only. This can pull 4 adults so you can see just how powerful they are. One motor per wheel could soon get you out of problems. Transmission looses a mass of energy. On your own she is very lively once you have managed to tame the power and even sitting on it you get wheelspin. Superb at night with the built in headlight. Range is 5 laps per charged battery. Spares carried aboard. David and Lily.
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tigermoth
Seasoned Member
Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on May 16, 2021 15:28:40 GMT
Talking about changing starter motors, I remember having to change one on a lorry one night and had to use two long extensions and two short extensions to reach the top bolt, a so and so to put that bolt back, eventually having dropped it x amount of times I stuck some grease in the socket to hold it in place.
Tuther fitter went out to Germany to repair a coach and filled up the rad with ditch water in the dark, when we got it back to the garage there were water snails crawling everywhere, we had to strip the lot to flush them out of the system.
Mate of mine asked for help on his Ford 8 as there was a noise coming from the gearbox, fifteen minutes to drop the box, 1 hour to strip the box and put new bearing on the main shaft, all buttoned up and running in two hours, think that was the car that had a spring across the back, easy to get off but without a spreader a devil of a job to renew.
Merc's, I have had 5 and never had a problem with any of them, but they were the 70s, the first one I bought had 120,000 miles on the clock, LHD, was stopped in London one day by a lady copper who asked for the details and then decided to check the engine number, well the engine was filthy, I offered to wipe it down but she was determined to do it herself, after about 15 minuites her hands were black but she had found the number and announced that the car had been stolen in Germany 5 years before, asked her what she was going to do about it, she just walked away and I never heard a thing.
Could go on and on.
Norman.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 16:53:06 GMT
I attended a small car meet this morning, one of the guys bought along his new (to him) Merc CLS convertible....he had had an issue with the air suspension for which it had to go back to the main dealer. They diagnosed a failed valve and duly charged him £1k for the new part and labour. He insisted on keeping the failed valve and asked for an explanation of what had failed and why? They sent out the tech guy who tried to dazzle him with all these bug words of how and why it failed. Now, this is one of my biggest gripes about new cars and how they are serviced/repaired. The mechanics (ala Tech's) in most cases have zero ideas, of what is wrong and why it failed, they aren't trained to do any actual repairs. They are trained to plug in a computer, read the error code, cross-reference it to the part concerned, order in the new part, and change it with the old part being thrown away. If there was ever a case of waste and bad for the world's emissions, new car ownership is it. Most new cars have to go back to the dealers as they are leased, in the near future, all new cars will be leased, for the simple reason that their battery life will be short and not replaceable, hence throw it away. Ok, so going back to the failed valve on this new Merc, the guy took it home and stripped it down, why did it fail? A cheap O ring had split, nothing else was wrong with the unit... this is why I'm not a fan of new cars or main dealers as they don't know how to fix the problem. My son had a Bently brought in for a failed head unit, Bently wanted £10k for a new unit, my son stripped it down, replaced the broken worm gear and gave the car back 2 days later, only charged the guy a very low amount, about £100. The moral to the story is main dealers who just plug in a computer are crap, unfortunately, that means all of them. My son did well out of it though, he's had a few Bently's in now for paintwork, last week it was a new Mcclaren.....next month all being well he'll have my car in for a full respray.. can't wait... Pete
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,269
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Post by smallbrother on May 16, 2021 19:56:51 GMT
My daughter met with both extremes of garage helpfulness recently.
Her car wouldn't run and made an awful noise at her place of work 20 miles away. I wish she had rung me but I had done her some big favours and I think she was reluctant to ask for more.
Eventually the breakdown man turns up and thinks it could be the timing belt. It doesn't have one. Oh well, could be the chain. So the car is loaded up and taken to a local garage who recently serviced the vehicle.
The following day the garage claim it sounds like the timing chain which they wouldn't be able to fix. So daughter rings around loads of garages trying to find one that did timing chains. Car is duly transported to one that does but by now it was Bank Holiday weekend.
Anyway, the garage looked at the car on the Wednesday and rang her with their findings. The noise was from a belt and pulley driving the air-con. 500 for the parts, 250 labour. Or, disconnect the air-con. 30 quid.
No surprise she went for the latter option and everything is fine.
On another theme, my brother runs pleasure boats around Cardiff Bay. He is a very skilled, old school mechanic/engineer and gets his hands dirty often. He fixes many things that others would chuck away and replace. The trouble is, he owns the firm and his energy needs to be on growing the business, not messing about with the engines. There is a time and place for replace or repair, it's getting the right balance that's key.
Pete.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2021 20:33:51 GMT
wow.. I garage that can't do a timing chain? glad your daughter got her car sorted Pete..
Pete
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on May 17, 2021 0:04:55 GMT
A day of cars today and 3 illustrations of what not to do with them. Yes a drive through Bracknell and over to Dartford via the M 25. Fine on the way and we got the windscreen nicely washed. Picked up the part built Asia. etc.
Then battled through the rain on the way back. Yes three major prangs sliding induced as the young drivers had not been instructed in Aquaplaning. The Bracknell one had gone down the new widened bit. 4 fire engines in attendance. Well lucky the station is almost opposite. We could not see the car. The 20 mins on NO RAIN were used in the services. See the 2 minis in the picture joke section for our usual parking space.
CARS.
David and Lily.
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on May 17, 2021 9:23:55 GMT
I'm appalled at the quality of driving nowadays because I see it daily. The number of drivers that toot me because I pulled out in front of them when in reality I pulled out first but due to the nature of me driving a bus I was still halfway across the line when they finally closed the quarter mile gap. I'm certain it mentions the room needed for vehicles such as mine in the highway code. It can take four or five seconds just to get the bus to move yet alone to a safe speed to get out. Numpties overtaking and deciding that my safe braking gap is perfect for them to cut in. As for bad weather driving... No lights.... No speed reduction. Snow.... Don't get me going on snow.... I learnt riding a Yamaha RD200 in snow. I'm one of the few bus drivers at my depot that's comfy in snow.....no sudden moves like accelerate or brake or turn or gear change. How some drivers are still alive, I do not know.
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