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Post by Roger on May 18, 2021 16:27:42 GMT
I just found this intersting article which sadly only goes up to 1991. However, the point is clear, and that is modern cars last longer than ones made in decades past. It's hardly surprising when you look at the tools we now have for both designing and manufacturing them. The biggest enemy of reliability is the human element. Cars that don't see the mechanic's spanner are likely to outlast the ones that keep getting interfered with. The production lines automatically mate pristine components precisely, with controlled torques and correct sealants. The human element has steadly been removed, with accompanying benefits in consistency. Quality control and improved processes along wth good design are driving this longevity. Sure, we all know someone who's had a bad experience, or had them ourselves. Some of us have had an old car that's beena real gem. However the sample size and variety of vehicles we personally experience isn't enough to draw any meaningful conclusions. You have to look at big data to find the answers.
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by smallbrother on May 18, 2021 17:14:36 GMT
I'm happy to explain my POV. Not looking to lecture anyone! Happy to hear other POVs.
Most on here have reached senior years so we must all have done something right in our lives.
My vehicle is a Vivaro van so I am limited more that a car in the speed I can do on most roads. It really is amazing how often cars go belting past me, only for me to catch up with them at some traffic lights, roadworks etc a few miles further on. I just can't see the point in exceeding speed limits on our busy roads. Just puts more wear on the vehicle and burns excess fuel. I stick to the speed limits apart from motorways where I am allowed 70 (the only place for 70) but stick to 60. The fuel consumption rockets for those extra 10mph and the extra stress makes it unattractive to me.
I drove my Dad's cars at well over a ton back in the 70s. The motorways were almost empty back then.
Pete.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2021 17:17:10 GMT
ahh.. but that article isn't doing your argument any favours Roger.. it's an old article that only goes to the '90s... so yes things were getting better when compared to '50s and even 70's when build quality in the UK was diabolical.. things weren't much better in the early 80's with cars like Fords and Italian makes which rusted away before they even got to the buyer. Of course, some marques were leap years ahead of the rest, top German makes leading the way, Ferrari was rubbish for build quality. CAD began to take over in the '90s and this is when things began to take a dive. For example, Porsche with their 996 (911) and 986 (Boxster) models was particularly bad with a high incidence of engine failure rates. This wasn't just due to the odd seal that failed, this was also due to poor design and choice of material, cylinder bores becoming oval and thus scrap although some aftermarket companies such as Hartech solved the issue with fitting new sleeves. The cars mentioned also had majour issues with the IMS failing, it got so bad that Porsche had to replace the entire engine on cars where this occurred, IIRC it was around 20% of engines for the 911 (996) and perhaps more for the 986. New Porsche seals failed to solve the problem, even after being redesigned on CAD and so Porsche had to replace the affected engines completely. Today there is an aftermarket American company that has had some success in dealing with the IMS issues. Things hadn't improved much with the 997 first-gen 911 models. For the value of my own model, you can buy a number of Boxsters, 1 or 2 996's, Cayenne's, Cayman and even the first-gen 997. This is because the issues from the first CAD cars are well known, like a waiting time bomb. I'm not saying that CAD isn't good, far from it, just that when matched to a cost-cutting regime, things can get pretty bad and very quickly, Porsche being the prime example during the '90s and 2000s
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tigermoth
Seasoned Member
Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on May 29, 2021 7:30:12 GMT
Like some of you all out there I drove those lorries that bend in the middle through all sorts of weather from snowstorms through dust storms and rain you could not drive through as you could not see the road under the wheels, oh I forgot those yellow cotton wool fogs in London in the 50s, I am also quite comfortable driving in any weather conditions because we had to do it, you soon learned what was the best way to cope with the weather and most of all that the brakes only worked properly when the road was dry, the rest of the time it was down to the nut behind the wheel to drive in such a way that the brakes were only there to assist driving and that planing your moves starts long, long before you need to touch the brake pedal, the throttle can get you out of more problems than the brake ever will, like, will the lights change, will the old dear/bloke/me, step off the curb, just ease down a bit and give her/him/me the chance to make that decision, we know that accidents happen but so few are actually accidents anyway, with a bit less speed or more thought most are avoidable, ok so they are not on purpose but it is thinking that makes a good driver.
As for garages, all my car work is done by a mate of mine, I trust him and know if he tells me he has done whatever he HAS done it, any parts replaced are left in the boot for me to see, and I even get advisories on what will/could need doing in the near future, he will not do timing chains though.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jun 2, 2021 8:48:55 GMT
CAD has nothing to do with how good a design is, It is the idiots behind the mouse! My thoughts after 40 years of working with CAD.
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Post by andyhigham on Jun 2, 2021 9:29:43 GMT
People are quick to blame computers for every ill in the world. One of the first things I was taught when I went to college to do a GCSE in computer studies was GARBAGE IN = GARBAGE OUT
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by smallbrother on Jun 2, 2021 9:58:20 GMT
CAD has nothing to do with how good a design is, It is the idiots behind the mouse! My thoughts after 40 years of working with CAD. Yes agree. Surprising how many drawings I saw had dimensions written over other dimension. All it needed was to make them smaller or shift them over a bit. Too many designers not thinking of the people trying to read the drawing. Pete.
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Post by coniston on Jun 4, 2021 20:17:58 GMT
CAD has nothing to do with how good a design is, It is the idiots behind the mouse! My thoughts after 40 years of working with CAD. Yes agree. Surprising how many drawings I saw had dimensions written over other dimension. All it needed was to make them smaller or shift them over a bit. Too many designers not thinking of the people trying to read the drawing. Pete. That was the skill of the draughtsman, now sadly long gone Chris D
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on Jun 5, 2021 1:11:57 GMT
I'm still 'old school' draughtperson, 2D rules OK. My first 4 weeks of my toolmaking apprenticeship was in the drawing office,sharpening pencils.
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smallbrother
Elder Statesman
Errors aplenty, progress slow, but progress nonetheless!
Posts: 2,268
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Post by smallbrother on Jun 5, 2021 8:31:50 GMT
I'm still 'old school' draughtperson, 2D rules OK. My first 4 weeks of my toolmaking apprenticeship was in the drawing office,sharpening pencils. The thing is the drawings on CAD are so much easier to edit! Pete.
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,902
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Post by JonL on Jun 5, 2021 9:48:53 GMT
Skills evolve, and technology has made drafting easier, and more and more people are doing it due to the rise in 3D printing. I don't see that it's a bad thing.
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on Jun 5, 2021 22:54:33 GMT
Granted, editing in 2D or 3D is easier but being grounded in paper and pencil, those errors rarely happen. When designing my Class 76,the only editing needed was to lessen my bill with the laser cutters. I redrew some bulkheads to join two together and lessen the parts count.
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Post by dhamblin on Jun 6, 2021 8:25:49 GMT
The technical drawing module was during the first year of my undergraduate degree course. Luckily GCSE and A Level D&T had given me a good grounding such that when we got to the final mini-test in the module I managed to spot a dashed line that was clearly intended to confuse the students into misinterpreting the geometry of a test piece. Only one out of a group of about 30 international students to spot it.
Smugness got wiped out in the fluid dynamics class that followed when I failed a test...
Coming back to the subject of small cars - I noticed that the recent government bailout of TfL required a further look at imposing a London wide road usage charge. No doubt it will be layered as to size and emissions of the vehicle, but it does penalise those needing use of a car for hobby / past time use as the whole point is to encourage use of public transport, walking or cycling.
Regards,
Dan
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Post by jon38r80 on Jun 8, 2021 11:16:59 GMT
Until public transport is restored to the same standards and availability as when I was a child , the privately owned vehicle is going to be king. I live in an area criss crossed with rail lines that were 'retired' and the areas they served no loger have trains or buses so without a car you need a horse if you want to go any distance or move a large or heavy object. CVant see the return of horses and horse drawn vehicles any time soon, the general public hasnt the space to keep them
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Post by andyhigham on Jun 8, 2021 13:35:41 GMT
Public transport got overtaken by the private car. Back in our youth cars were a lot less common so public transport was the only option for many. Now for public transport to compete with the car it would need to be more convenient, I can't see that happening any time soon. To be convenient it needs to go from where people are to where they wish to be. I tried getting home from work on a bus at 6pm, it would have been a 20 minute wait for a bus into the town centre so I opted to walk. When I reached the bus station the only information was bus numbers and final destinations I gave up and ordered a taxi. I planned a return journey to work for the following morning, got all the timings etc, it worked out at a 50 minute journey. I booked a taxi, it was a 10 minute journey and cheaper than the bus. I see the future for public transport as something in between bus and taxi where the vehicle is dispatched when demanded via an app of phone call. How wasteful is it for double decker busses to drive around with less than a car full of passengers?
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jem
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,062
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Post by jem on Jun 8, 2021 17:31:31 GMT
any years ago I was in Venezuela, there the taxis had a route, and you paid for your place in the taxi, when it was full off you went, that is perhaps the real answer to taxi/bus service I would think?
Jem
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Post by andyhigham on Jun 8, 2021 19:00:27 GMT
A slight diversion. Whilst small cars are nippy and frugal on fuel and electric cars have immense torque and acceleration and are cheap to run. There is nothing to beat the burble and power delivery of a V8 and sod the MPG figures
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on Jun 9, 2021 0:24:47 GMT
Public transport got overtaken by the private car. Back in our youth cars were a lot less common so public transport was the only option for many. Now for public transport to compete with the car it would need to be more convenient, I can't see that happening any time soon. To be convenient it needs to go from where people are to where they wish to be. I tried getting home from work on a bus at 6pm, it would have been a 20 minute wait for a bus into the town centre so I opted to walk. When I reached the bus station the only information was bus numbers and final destinations I gave up and ordered a taxi. I planned a return journey to work for the following morning, got all the timings etc, it worked out at a 50 minute journey. I booked a taxi, it was a 10 minute journey and cheaper than the bus. I see the future for public transport as something in between bus and taxi where the vehicle is dispatched when demanded via an app of phone call. How wasteful is it for double decker busses to drive around with less than a car full of passengers? What you don't realise is that there are severe restrictions on the number of people that can be carried by a bus due to the social distancing laws. I usually drive a 73 seat single deck Enviro but with the restrictions I'm now down to 20. Leaving somebody behind isn't fun, it doesn't keep me in a job. The reason a double decker bus is used is so more people can be taken. Sadly privatisation hasn't helped the late night buses. We had a bus in Neath that ran until closing time. The fact that a local Councillor drank at the Colliers Arms has nothing to do with it. Still lockdown has stopped that farce. It's plain and simple... Do we run a late night service for maybe 1 or 2 people. No of course we don't and it would be wrong to use public money to finance those buses. The solution is blindingly simple... Use it or lose it
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on Jun 9, 2021 0:48:50 GMT
Then there are all the Garages that employ many. The Car Bar came recommended by our neighbor and we spent almost 2 hours there while these were replaced. We passed our MOT back in November there. We use a small independent Garage down in Plymouth as well. Walking distance of course. New Brake discs during the summer. A wonderful clutter of small cars that constantly had to be shunted round to make room. Could a chat with such Garages revile the best Small Car to have. David and Lily.
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lesstoneuk
Part of the e-furniture
Retired Omnibus navigation & velocity adjustment technician
Posts: 373
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Post by lesstoneuk on Jun 9, 2021 7:40:31 GMT
Here is what I learnt over the years.... Vauxhall - biscuit tins. Ford - feel worn out from new. French cars - wiring is crap, petrol don't bother, diesel are good. German used to be built like a Tiger but now not so good. Japanese - overpriced. Cheepo chinese/taiwanese/korean/rumanian - OK but ultimately you get what you pay for. Me, I'm seriously thinking of a classic car as my next one.
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