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Post by William A on Jul 15, 2021 8:55:14 GMT
Good morning all,
I had pretty much settled on an LBSCR H2 "Ayesha" as per LBSC design for 2½" gauge as my first loco - to the extent of submitting a request for castings from the association and laser etched frames from Model Engineer's laser. My reason for being swayed this was was the exponentially more affordable cost of copper for the boiler, simplification of components, and that it could all be done on my ML7. However, two things have potentially upset the apple cart, and I'm hoping to get some advice to settle my mind once again.
Firstly, as per my other message, I have sorted out myself a nice horizontal/vertical milling machine, so the 4 x 2" milling envelope of the ML7 with a vertical slide is expanded to 14" x 5" on the mill along with the attendant reduction in time/effort for milling larger parts.
Secondly, I bought a Clarkson chuck for aforementioned mill from a local seller on eBay who turned out to be a volunteer at Beech Hurst (his first initial "A", incase he is member here too) who very strongly urged me to reconsider 5" gauge now I have the mill in hand with these points:
- Only an incremental vs. exponential increase in work/time.
- Large 5" gauge track less than a mile down the road of ~800yds vs. needing to construct my own track or travelling 1.5hrs to nearest (Crowborough, Worthing) - no nearby garden tracks.
- Higher resale value in theory.
I thought more about cost, and realised the only major increase in cost is copper for the boiler - which is significant if one considers material costs in a vacuum, but actually not a huge increase when comes to overall cost of tooling and time - and only fractionally more expensive if I outshop the boiler (some time ago, but was quoted something like £2500 for a 5" Maid of Kent boiler versus around £2000 for a 2½" Ayesha boiler, iirc).
I had considered that a 2½" loco might be a good way to ease into things even if I didn't pursue that scale or gauge any further. But right now I am building a Stuart 10V which was intended be a stepping stone to a loco, and while I was full of enthusiasm learning the ropes at the start, as the build is nearing completion I'm finding myself agitated and impatient to finish so I can build 'what I want'. I'm concerned that during the construction of a 2½" loco I might start to feel that way too - which would be a much more expensive mistake to make!
To summarise, my understanding was that 2½" would be cheaper, quicker, more achievable, and would have local get togethers to run. However, it turns out that 5" gauge may be only slightly more expensive and longer to build in the grand scheme of things with the same level of achievability and a very close large track to run on.
Having been so sure, I'm now conflicted again and would love to hear any thoughts or opinions!
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JonL
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WWSME (Wiltshire)
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Post by JonL on Jul 15, 2021 9:08:37 GMT
I think if you are building something to use you need to consider what is local to you track wise. No point having a locomotive you can't easily steam.
Some would argue (including me) that the smaller you go the more fiddly some of the engineering.
Let's say you are machining a 5" cylinder vs a 2.5" cylinder. Why would the 5" take more time? It's going to be more expensive to buy though, as you say.
Personally if you were choosing between 5" and 2.5" I would be going 5" every time. But I have 3.5" as a compromise between the two, also meaning I can move and store them easily. That being said, 5" would still be my favoured choice.
I think its fair to say I'm still very inexperienced in these things, I've only one completed engine (which I didn't start) and one which is probably a quarter complete. I can only give you info based on my limited experience.
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mbrown
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Post by mbrown on Jul 15, 2021 10:43:39 GMT
There is no right answer to this question. But unless you have a local 2.5" gauge track, you will be limited by time and distance in the amount of running you can do. On this forum, you'll find people who are primarily "builders" and others who get the most fun out of running. All my locos are 2.5" gauge and attending two or three rallies a year feels about right for me. But that would feel very minimal for some others.
For some people, the urge is to build to a particular prototype - or to a particular degree of accuracy in all details. A 2.5"g 9F would be relatively affordable but very fiddly. A 5"g shunter would be easier and quicker to build. If you have the basic kit, it comes down to "What is your motivation?" and "What outcome will satisfy you?"
Malcolm
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Post by ettingtonliam on Jul 15, 2021 10:49:00 GMT
Depends what you want to build in 5" gauge. Possibly a 5" 0 4 0 wouldn't be much if any more work, though I think castings such as cylinders and wheel might be considerably more expensive. Going for a bigger loco such as a 4 6 0, especially anything with super scale castings, then the costs and work expand dramatically. One other thing on a more personal level, my fingers can't cope with little fiddly bits any more, so that tends to rule out anything smaller than 6BA threads!
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Post by William A on Jul 15, 2021 16:48:36 GMT
I must add I'm not sold either way at the moment, the help and support from the G3A and N2½"GA has been overwhelming. So, if I must pay up for the cost of the castings and laser cut parts I put in for, then I absolutely will fulfill my obligation that way and it will decide the project for me! Assuming it would be possible to make amends some other way with those though, I think the 5" gauge option is worth considering given my expanded workshop and proximity to Beech Hurst.
It seems for either option there is a requirement to transport my loco to a track by car, and on balance proximity of a track vs locomotive logistics probably even out.
I'm not (too) old, 36 - and I hope whatever gauge I choose I'll have a couple of locos in me - but I have started to wear glasses and I am increasingly fatigued by dealing with tiny little fiddly things. Particularly when big heavy clunking things look, smell and sound like the real thing! Part of the reason I moved from N to S to G1 to G3!
As per my other threads I'm not a huge fan of twee - I'd much prefer Lyn over Sweet Pea, for example. My absolute delight would be one of the larger SR locos, and I am aware of the dichotomy between desire and achievability...
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johnd
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Post by johnd on Jul 15, 2021 18:15:57 GMT
As Malcolm quite rightly said there is no right answer. My only advise is to build a model of the prototype that you really admire. Building a model takes a lot of time, to complete the goal of a working model it helps if your enthusiasm is sustained by the prototype you choose.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2021 18:40:46 GMT
Hi William
I will just say that whichever scale you choose does not mean that you can not build another at a later date. I would bet that many if not most model engineers have their fingers in more than just one pie. I will second what John has just said, choose a model that you really want to build and that will sustain you through both good and bad days.
Pete
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Post by Cro on Jul 15, 2021 20:02:11 GMT
I must add I'm not sold either way at the moment, the help and support from the G3A and N2½"GA has been overwhelming. So, if I must pay up for the cost of the castings and laser cut parts I put in for, then I absolutely will fulfill my obligation that way and it will decide the project for me! Assuming it would be possible to make amends some other way with those though, I think the 5" gauge option is worth considering given my expanded workshop and proximity to Beech Hurst. William, I can say that both gauges are fun but for me the bigger the better! G3 and 2 1/2" Dad is into and it makes handling it all very easy but I do enjoy steaming round Beech Hurst (!) of an afternoon with 4 trucks behind my Black 5. I will drop you a PM. Adam
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,902
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Post by JonL on Jul 15, 2021 20:03:53 GMT
Agreed, it's easier to be enthusiastic about something you love.
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Post by coniston on Jul 15, 2021 22:07:42 GMT
Hi William, as others say build what you desire BUT make it one that is achievable. There are some really detailed designs out there but will require a significant amount of work over a more simple design. For example Martin Evans B1 'Springbok' is much simpler to build to drawing than Don Young's Black 5 even though they are very comparable locomotives for size and power (both have their design flaws as well)
Don't discount 3 1/2" gauge, not much more cost than 2 1/2", most 5" tracks cater also for 3 1/2", powerful enough to pull passengers, big enough to make it easier for a less experienced driver to manage, potentially easier to store and move around.
Also if you ever fancy travelling to other society tracks it would be easier to find 3 1/2" and 5" over 2 1/2".
Chris
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,902
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Post by JonL on Jul 15, 2021 22:17:25 GMT
You'd be welcome to come drive my William and see what you think, If you don't think Westbury is too far from you.
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Gary L
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Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Jul 15, 2021 23:04:17 GMT
I must add I'm not sold either way at the moment, the help and support from the G3A and N2½"GA has been overwhelming. So, if I must pay up for the cost of the castings and laser cut parts I put in for, then I absolutely will fulfill my obligation that way and it will decide the project for me! Assuming it would be possible to make amends some other way with those though, I think the 5" gauge option is worth considering given my expanded workshop and proximity to Beech Hurst. William, I can say that both gauges are fun but for me the bigger the better! G3 and 2 1/2" Dad is into and it makes handling it all very easy but I do enjoy steaming round Beech Hurst (!) of an afternoon with 4 trucks behind my Black 5. I will drop you a PM. Adam Yes, “a good big-un is better than a good little-un”. Heavier and a bit more expensive as well, of course, but also more powerful, so hauling yourself and maybe some others is easier too. It would be very disappointing if you found that the loco you had laboured over for years was simply too fiddly to make a satisfying drive. It is worse when you are a new driver and there is less margin for error. Something else to be aware of is the noticeable tendency for ‘trading up’ in size. We are better off than we were 50 years ago, so we can afford bigger and better machinery. This seems to make larger models more desirable on the second hand market, and 5” gauge is almost ‘entry-level’ among passenger haulers. The best evidence for this is the ready-made and kit-build market; compare the relative numbers of 5” gauge vs. smaller offerings. I’m not saying that’s what you want, because you clearly don’t, but it is a sign of how the world is turning. Gary
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dscott
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Post by dscott on Jul 16, 2021 0:09:42 GMT
I am currently back on the Hunslet in 5 inch Gauge and racing CAREFULLY to getting her ready for this year. 7 days to Dreaming Spires in Oxford it says in my Diary. Yes a day of tapping holes in a Western Steam Boiler. This is why I feel shattered this evening.
A nice lump when finished and I have never met a sad Hunslet driver. Several bigger and a sweet Linda Hunslet at the Rugby Narrow Gauge weekend last Weekend. Go down Model Engineers Laser's list and choose something well covered... Yes I am friends with both past and present owners and had a lovely chat with Holly about electric vehicles, but I am not influencing anyone!!!! It just speeds things up.
David and Lily.
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 16, 2021 10:02:57 GMT
Regardless of gauge build a loco you like, remember you will be looking at it every day. Build something you can comfortably handle and move, a Union Pacific "Big Boy" will be over 1.5M long in 2.5" gauge Narrow gauge engines can come out quite large, even when the prototype is very small, A Hunslet "Alice" class will be around 750mm long x 350mm wide in 5" gauge.
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Post by William A on Jul 16, 2021 11:31:07 GMT
On building something I want to: In an ideal world there are about a dozen locomotives I'd love to build and own. The cream of the crop probably are, however: - SR King Arthur, Lord Nelson, or Schools - LBSCR Baltic Tank, or Atlantic - SECR D or E-class
One of the attractions with the N25GA is the well curated list of loco drawings (and corrections), parts, and articles provided by the association - something that I gather can't be said for 5"? How the above maps to any available drawings/castings/etc. is a complete mystery to me.
GaryL - the idea that a loco might be worth something at the end of the day is nice, particularly if there is a change in circumstance. JonL - Westbury is about a 5 hour round trip so a bit far at the moment (my other half needs a fair bit of care currently) coniston/ettingtonliam - I see the paradigm in the Greenly vs Modelworks (?) King Arthurs. As long as the lines are elegant I'm happy with simplicity. greenglade - 2½" is still very attractive to me, make no mistake - I am just worried that I will start to feel 'what is the point', if I'm just doing it to get it done and move onto a 5" gauge loco afterward. 2½" seems like it would make owning a couple of locos from my wishlist slightly more feasible.
andyhigham - My interests are primarily 1870s-1940s british southern-region steam, so no danger of a big boy. I had considered a quarry hunslet, but the fact you can buy the maxitrak offerings off the shelf makes me less enthused.
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millman
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Post by millman on Jul 16, 2021 16:30:59 GMT
William I think if you shop around you would get a 2 1/2 gauge boiler for around £1500 based on the fact that Maidstone engineering are currently listing Rob Roy and Juliet boilers for that price. Ayesha should be a fairly quick build being slip eccentric valve gear, the cylinders are easy to machine and if you do mess one up will not cost a fortune to replace, maybe I am biased, I started building a 2 1/2 Toby during lockdown and am a member of the 2 1/2 association, at your age you have plenty of time to move on to larger things later, not like us old pensioners who have to decide very carefully what to build as we only have time for one more loco build, if we are lucky!
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 16, 2021 16:54:32 GMT
Just a little bit of info for you guys. At Ribble Valley we have a 2 1/2" track along with the 3 1/2" and 5"
Edisford Bridge Clitheroe BB7 3LJ
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 17:19:21 GMT
Just to add, we also have a small oval of 2 1/2, 3 1/2 dual-line at NLSME (North London), known as the cuckoo line which runs around the boating pond. I have no idea of the significance of this name.. Pete
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Post by William A on Jul 16, 2021 21:10:16 GMT
I am a member of the N25GA and G3 association and have nothing but good things to say about both and 2.5" gauge in general. It seemed like a far more suitable option than 5" gauge when I was both without a mill and under the impression there would be more local members/garden tracks/etc. I could pony up and build my own of course, which would solve the problem of logistics and distances in one fell swoop - but that additional cost probably makes both size equivalent in outlay.
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 16, 2021 21:31:05 GMT
We have held the 2 1/2 gauge rally at Ribble Valley, unfortunately this years rally was cancelled due to covid It is a challenging track to drive with a couple of climbs and only one straight. Very picturesque alongside the river, plenty of willing passengers and a camp/caravan site next door
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