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Post by William A on Jul 16, 2021 22:04:07 GMT
Upon reflection I feel as though my some of initial justifications are slightly less valid (i.e. there are no local 2.5” gauge tracks, and I now have a milling machine, etc.) others are still sound (it’s affordable, in theory it is a quick build with slide vales and slip eccentrics, etc.) and a well documented, well supported small loco such as the 2-1/2" Atlantic will prove I can ‘do it’.
If I decide to stick with 2-1/2" then the world is my oyster, and if not then I could potentially slide straight into a 5” gauge loco I really wanted (i.e. one of those previously mentioned such as a King Arthur, Lord Nelson, West Country, Schools, etc.) rather than starting with an 'accessible' beginner loco in 5” that I liked but didn't love.
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mbrown
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Post by mbrown on Jul 16, 2021 22:44:36 GMT
Come to a 2.5"g Association Rally sometime and see that gauge in action. Then you can make a better judgement about whether the finished job is what you are looking for.
Sutton Coldfield, Sunday 1st August, for instance...
Malcolm
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dscott
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Post by dscott on Jul 17, 2021 0:23:13 GMT
I had to look twice at the Maxitrax Hunslet when I met one!!! And you can lift her up? Not sure where they got the scale from but with Don Young he did that size in 3 1/2" gauge. The 5" Don Young version is very much bigger. She is best not lifted and is rated at 11 people pulled. The boiler is closer to a small 7 1/4" gauge one.
Not many people Know this but the Reeves Girls have been supplying the wrong wheels to Jinty and Speedy builders for some time. and after some searching found they are a perfect fit size and number of spokes for a dear E 1. Yes she is a bigger Terrier. 1 Preserved on the Isle of Wight. They have also been known to send out Manor Grange wheels when packing large Prairie parts. £50 difference in price in favour of the customer. This helped me when I noted a machined set for sale on e-bay yes just the wheels. The guy selling turned up with a full set of castings including the cylinders. 40 years under various benches.
Poly do a Schools and she is a super Locomotive. So many parts laser cut and off the shelf. 3 preserved to go and look at.
David and Lily.
A very nice 5 inch Adams Radial has turned up for sale at a very nice price........................... YES one little catch......................... And I put in the location 800 people in the remote Scottish town... Maps told of almost 11 hours of driving one way. And a round trip of 1200 miles from Reading.
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iant
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Post by iant on Jul 17, 2021 9:59:14 GMT
Well you already know my opinion William but I'll cover a few things not already mentioned here! :-)
I started out building 3.5" Narrow Gauge engines (so think 5"+ pulling power) and joined one of my local MES (I have several nearby). I used to get to drive a borrowed 'William' from time to time, which I certainly enjoyed doing. But the majority of my time was workshop bound and it's mostly the 'making' that I enjoy. Driving is fun but once you've driven around the same circle a few dozen times, it does wear off a little. When I got to the boiler building stage, I will admit to funking out. I didn't think I could build it myself and couldn't afford (at that time) to buy it in. So impasse!
I started going to Garden Railway events (mid 90's - Kew etc) looking at 16mm NG locos but they didn't quite 'do it' for me. Gauge 1 was nice but I found myself drawn to the Gauge '3' Society stand and I very much liked the solid 'feel' and weight of the rolling stock and the look of the engines. I should mention that the G3S stands were always very simple back then, with just a couple of locos and a few examples of wagon and carriage stock. The same guys would would stand quietly and smile back at me and even apologise that "you really have to make most things yourself I'm afraid" because there was virtually no trade support for G3 back then. But I kept going back every year and eventually joined the G3 Society (and a year or so later the National 2.5" Gauge Association).
So my question back then was - Do I want to sit behind an engine and drive it or am I more of a Railway Modeller who wants to run the biggest and best railway models I can and sit and watch my trains run past? Because they are very different things I believe.
I enjoy all aspects of G3, including building both the rolling stock and the engines. I can also build a G3/2.5" boiler, so the cost of a commercial boiler is not a problem in practice and I currently have two small boilers part built. I guess that leads to another question, how long is your list of locos you'd like to build (or own)? I'm not the best example of workshop efficiency but we certainly do have members who have built very nice Gauge 3 engines at the rate of about one a year - which I doubt many can do in 5".
I should mention that many G3S live steamers also run at N2.5GA Rallies, as well as at G3S GTG's, so it's not a black or white issue. A large, well detailed 5" tender loco is going to take some time to build and cost a good deal more. But I think the key difference between Gauge '3' (which is my main focus - not 2.5" per-se) and 5" is really that G3 is the top-end of the Garden scales (e.g. standard gauge railway modelling) and that 5" is the mid-range gauge for passenger hauling on MES tracks. We can argue the pros and cons of costs, resale values, nearest tracks etc - but look beyond that and try to decide what is going to best deliver want you want from the END product.
That's what I did several decades ago and I'm still happy with the choices I made - but of course everyone is different. :-)
Regards,
IanT
PS I have the luxury of owning two mills (a big one, which weighs over a ton and a 'littler' one, just 350lbs). I also have various lathes, shapers, drill presses etc - so I could certainly build bigger but simply choose not to. Bigger machines are very nice to have (if you have the room) and can certainly be much more convenient but they don't necessarily build any better - that's still down to the operator I'm afraid. :-(
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Post by dhamblin on Jul 17, 2021 10:12:14 GMT
An additional 2 1/2" rail around Beechurst would make for a challenging lap On a more serious note the Leatherhead track would be within reasonable range of you and that does have a 2 1/2" rail. I will say this for the N25GA guys - they are a very friendly bunch and I've had some good chats with them at the Midlands show and am seriously considering 'Toby' as my first full build to gain confidence. Regards, Dan
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timb
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Post by timb on Jul 17, 2021 11:45:06 GMT
Just to throw my hat into the ring so to speak, you must do what you WANT to do. It sounds a bit daft but there are many half built locos out there for a variety of reasons, some financial, some for lack of skills but a great many are not completed because the builder just got bored with it. These things can take years to build so if you are not sufficiently motivated then you will fail.
Small does not necessarily mean quick or easy either, yes you can use slip eccentrics etc but being 10 thou out on a dimension in 5" gauge is not going to make a lot of difference but can mean a model will not work when down at gauge 1.
So decide what you WANT to do, be completely selfish about it, and then go for it. If nothing else you will enjoy the journey because it will be where you want to be.
Good luck!
Tim
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Post by William A on Jul 17, 2021 15:53:23 GMT
I do confess to having been totally mesmerised by the stunning 5" Springbok and Maid of Kent at Beech Hurst today... I think I need to sit on my hands for a month before making any more rash choices.
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JonL
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Post by JonL on Jul 17, 2021 18:51:44 GMT
When it comes to enjoyment, I'm a runner/maintainer more than a builder, enjoying refining both my techniques and the mechanical aspects of the locomotive. However I have warmed to construction; I just don't have enough hours in the day to do it all!
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Post by ejparrott on Jul 17, 2021 21:35:37 GMT
I enjot going out with my big engines, hauling big heavy trains with lots of passengers. If there's one thing I can't stand it's taking an engine out and having nothing for it to do, last thing I'll do is run round light engine.
...but it's actually nice to go out now and again with a little engine and just tootle round with either the Lion or the 2.5" Annie Body
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JonL
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Post by JonL on Jul 17, 2021 23:41:46 GMT
I'd like to get pulling proper loads but I haven't had the opportunity yet! At least I've not been embarrassed for steam in front of anyone yet...
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Post by William A on Jul 18, 2021 16:20:20 GMT
For loco choice, I have essentially two brackets - big southern locos, or small pre-group LBSCR/SECR locos. So, just for the sake of argument -
The LBSCR Baltic Tank is probably my first choice. However, I am working on the assumption that a loco without 5" drawings or castings would likely to be too much to chew on for a first time build and maybe better done after experience has been gained. If I'm wrong, then this would be good to go.
- A close second is a Lord Nelson or King Arthur. I assume the former is likely more challenging than the Baltic Tank, but there are Arthurs around. I gather I would be primarily be looking at the Greenly drawings? Does anyone do any castings? Information is scarce.
- Third would be either a 'Maid of Kent', or a 'Minx'. For the latter, specifically a variant I have seen where someone has added a pony truck and side tanks to make a convincing-enough-to-me LBSCR E-type. Is this latter option something straightforward enough for me not to get in a complete twist about as a beginner? See here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nY5Eoh7T4-w
All of these are appealing in their own way - the Baltic is an all-time favourite. The Arthur is right up my street. The Maid will scratch the itch for an Edwardian 4-4-0 and the Minx tank will get me a tasty pre-group LBSCR stalwart. Any thoughts on these would be gladly appreciated. ps. I have just sent payment for the invoice on the 2-1/2" Ayesha frames to Model Engineer's Laser. My girlfriend's rather astute observation was 'just keep them both, and do one when you get fed up with the other'.
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mbrown
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Post by mbrown on Jul 18, 2021 17:45:21 GMT
You have a very sensible girlfriend there - look after her!
Malcolm
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Post by andrewtoplis on Jul 19, 2021 12:47:18 GMT
Just to give a personal opinion, I had barely started a 3.5" Northumbrian before picking up a 3.5" Canterbury Lamb for restoration.
I'm absolutely committed to getting the Lamb going but the more I look at it on the shelf beside my desk I think something bigger would be better next time...just to be a bit more useful y'know?
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timb
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Post by timb on Jul 19, 2021 13:53:04 GMT
Just to give a personal opinion, I had barely started a 3.5" Northumbrian before picking up a 3.5" Canterbury Lamb for restoration. I'm absolutely committed to getting the Lamb going but the more I look at it on the shelf beside my desk I think something bigger would be better next time...just to be a bit more useful y'know? Any chance of some pics of your progress with the Lamb please?
Tim
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 19, 2021 14:17:34 GMT
William,
There has been a lot of sage advice given here, but I would look carefully at Ed's post and what he says. You should choose your engine based on what you want to do with it.
If you want to run at public running of your local club, pulling lots of passengers for hours on end, you will need a powerful engine - so a 5" tender engine would be just the ticket. If, however, you enjoy the challenge of driving a small engine - trying to keep the steam pressure and water level up, and maintaining a good fire while pulling yourself around your club track, then a small engine would fit your bill.
I built my Rob Roy as my first engine over 40 years ago. I enjoy driving 'light', and as we don't do public running, I don't miss having a more powerful engine. But keeping everything going is a challenge, and sometimes I miss the extra reserves that a larger engine provides - especially when I hold up other club members on their engines while I have a 'blow up'.
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johnd
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Post by johnd on Jul 19, 2021 14:43:45 GMT
I’ve been following this post with interest, i think most of us have gone through this thought process more than once. I certainly have, a number of times. Your girlfriend sounds like a very wise person, i personally like a number of projects, for me its all about the journey, not so much about arriving at the destination. I have been working on a Minx for a number of years, in my humble opinion a much underrated design. Nice size, easy to work on and has been a enjoyable build. I thought i would include this photo, it has been on this forum before but it may be of interest. It shows at the front a 31/2” Maise, behind it a 31/2” Hielan Lassie and at the back a 5” Minx. To the left you can see the Minx cylinder block.
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Post by William A on Jul 20, 2021 21:30:56 GMT
I wonder if I am being too tribal with regards to SR and constituents. If the locomotive would ultimately be destined for work at Beech Hurst then it seems I need to widen my criteria to find a passenger-hauling eight or ten-wheeler that I want to own and can build from castings and drawings as-designed.
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Jul 20, 2021 22:56:49 GMT
I wonder if I am being too tribal with regards to SR and constituents. If the locomotive would ultimately be destined for work at Beech Hurst then it seems I need to widen my criteria to find a passenger-hauling eight or ten-wheeler that I want to own and can build from castings and drawings as-designed. It has been said more than once already- if you don't have a passion for the loco, you won't finish building it. So you need to be tribal, and if SR floats your boat... It is also important (and for the same reasons) that you have a well-tried set of plans, and that somebody has flagged up the errors, because with very few saintly exceptions, error-free drawings are rare. There is a 'drawing errors' thread on here, and elsewhere. Very discouraging to invest a lot of time in a component and then find it won't fit. So an 'unusual' model might not be the best way to get started. HTH Gary
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Post by William A on Jul 21, 2021 9:39:40 GMT
The Arthur, Schools, Nelson, Bulleid Pacific, Baltic Tank, or mechanically adapted versions of the Minx/Glen - do not fall into the category of 'well-tried set of plans of a familiar model' and so might more suitable for later in my M.E. lifetime.
However, I'm fully open to older designs which are impressionistic rather than slavish in form and detail, so I think based on everything I've read, the advice given here and in my other thread is that I will go with my gut and build a Maid of Kent with inside cylinders, Don Young's stephenson valve gear, and a round-topped boiler. In addition to being the locomotive type that I really want to build, the mechanical form seems specific, achiveable and timely as well as being well known and explored.
EDIT: small clarification in next paragraph:
Everything would be built as per the published designs up to the last step (the footplate, splashers and cab), at which point (since after reading the build articles, the footplate, cab and splashers seem to be non-structural bolt-ons) - I could have a go at visually backdating these components to a pre-war SECR-style, and if that fails then I can go ahead and make them to the published pattern - no harm, no foul.
This could result in a locomotive that is unique to me visually (or not, if I am biting off more than I can chew), but is based on a proven and well known mechanical design that is not too huge or complex for my first attempt. I am still going to sit on my hands for a month before I make any concrete decision, though.
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Post by andyhigham on Jul 21, 2021 14:33:02 GMT
I have seen many MOKs with round top boilers disguised as belpaire. I prefer the looks of the round top boiler, it gives the loco lovely classic lines
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