tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 26, 2021 19:11:10 GMT
Hi All.
I have just applied the GWR transfers to one side tank and they look crap, there are white blotches all round the transfer, tried washing them off but will not come off even if washed with Fairy Liquid.
The paint is Phoenix and I used Humbrol Decalfix, the paint has been on for 2 months, any ideas please.
Norman.
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Jul 26, 2021 23:44:06 GMT
Hi All. I have just applied the GWR transfers to one side tank and they look crap, there are white blotches all round the transfer, tried washing them off but will not come off even if washed with Fairy Liquid. The paint is Phoenix and I used Humbrol Decalfix, the paint has been on for 2 months, any ideas please. Norman. I've never used Decalfix, but I suspect your white blotches are just moisture absorption in the paint or the transfer. Let them dry out overnight and it will quite likely disappear. Hope so! Gary
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Post by Jim on Jul 27, 2021 0:50:49 GMT
Hi All. I have just applied the GWR transfers to one side tank and they look crap, there are white blotches all round the transfer, tried washing them off but will not come off even if washed with Fairy Liquid. The paint is Phoenix and I used Humbrol Decalfix, the paint has been on for 2 months, any ideas please. Norman. A photo would help Norman so we could see what the problem is exactley.
I've used Humbrol decalfix with out any issues and it settles the transfers nicely over things like rivet heads on tank sides. As Gary suggests it coul be moisture absorption or possibly air bubbles.
Jim
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 27, 2021 7:33:44 GMT
Hi.
Thanks for the suggestions.
Looked this morning and still the same, got the transfers off, tried washing but no good, looks like a re paint job.
Do not do photo's, sorry, tried to put some on here last year, did not work.
Norman
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Post by 92220 on Jul 27, 2021 8:33:56 GMT
Hi Norman. Who's transfers did you use? Phoenix, Fox, or someone else's? If the Phoenix paint is still the same formula as I used (and I do think it is), there is no way that after 2 months, the paint would have absorbed moisture as I believe the formula is still vehicle enamel, so should be fully cured after 4 weeks and be as moisture resistant as the paint on your car. It is possible the Decafix has something in it that reacts with the paint, though again, I can't think what it could be. I have contacted Phoenix to confirm the current paint formula hasn't changed from what I used. It does sound as if it is a transfer problem though.
Bob.
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chris vine
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Post by chris vine on Jul 27, 2021 18:45:17 GMT
Hi Norman,
I feel your frustration.
yes, it is important to let the paint cure properly before messing about with transfers and lining etc. I am hoping that once the transfers are off, that the paint is unscathed. If it still has blotches, it might be worth a very light polish with an abrasive polish - very fine and see if that gets through it. If you go to your local vehicle refinishing supplies place, they should have something. Maybe by Fareclar...
The other thing is to prepare some test panels (painted) before you try transfers again.
I am not sure what the Decafix is supposed to do? I just slid the transfers into position (with masking tape windows to guide me). I had already trimmed all the surplus material from them, around the edges and in the middle of characters etc. Then I just sealed them with a little varnish (thinned 10%) so that it didn't dry too quickly. I just went about 1mm beyond the edges of the transfers so it is invisible.
The glue on the transfers (from Bob and Precision) was perfectly good without any extra adhesive. However the varnish layer on the top will make the whole job more resistant to wear and tear.
Hope this helps, Chris.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 27, 2021 19:18:18 GMT
Hi All.
Thanks for the support.
The transfers came from Reeves so should be OK, I soaked and removed the transfers, there was not any discoloration where the transfers had been, it was all round the outside where it had been, the only thing I can put it down to is the Decafix, (is supposed to soften the transfer to go round rivets etc) it was given to me three days ago, BUT I do not know how old it was.
Will get some Micro Sol and try again.
Also will try some T Cut or something similar as Chris suggested.
Will keep you all posted.
Norman.
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chris vine
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Post by chris vine on Jul 27, 2021 20:38:47 GMT
Hi Norman,
Have you got some test panels of the paint to try with the transfers and Micro Sol.
You can enjoy doing that rather than panic about spoiling the hard-won paint on the engine!!
Chris.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 28, 2021 6:38:27 GMT
Morning Chris.
Naa, not that forward looking I am afraid.
Will try on side that I already might have messed up with the Micro Sol and see what happens.
Gives me an opportunity to water test the boiler now that all the fittings are on, oh and air test the chassis, just finished piping up the Oil Swab boxes so those need painting, got to take the valve brackets off to drill and tap the pipe bracket holes, what I need is a very small engineer with the smallest electric drill to drill and tap the 4 10ba holes in the motion bracket for the pipe brackets.
Now, what other detail will I decide to put on, bound to be something that means taking bits from together, AGAIN.
Norman.
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Post by 92220 on Jul 28, 2021 8:23:11 GMT
Hi Norman.
As Chris say, test pieces are a good idea when using a different manufacturer's product on top of someone else's paint. Bear in mind though, that all BRUSHABLE paints, whether brushed or sprayed, take around 4 weeks to fully cure, and reach maximum resistance to surface damage. However, from what you have just posted, it looks as if the problem may be with interaction between the Decafix and transfers. The other solution is as Chris does...trim the carrier film around all the transfers. to leave about 1mm all around, and carefully varnish the transfers to JUST lip over the edge to seal it to the painted surface. The varnish coat is essential for all makes of waterslide transfer, as the adhesive does not have a very strong grip on the surface. Good luck. Hope it works out for you.
Bob.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 28, 2021 14:12:27 GMT
Hi Bob.
As I put in the first post, the paint was two months old.
The transfers are not the the problem, it is the paint that has discoloured.
I seriously think the problem lies with the Decalfix, I asked the mate who gave me the jar how long he had had it and he could not remember, so I have ordered some Micro Sol and will give that a try.
Norman.
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Post by 92220 on Jul 29, 2021 8:10:57 GMT
Hi Norman.
I have confirmed, with Phoenix, that the basic vehicle paint formulation is the same as when I made Phoenix Paints. Only the colour formulation has changed, to remove all traces of lead (which was minimal anyway, and within UK toy spec requirements) to comply with latest UK legislation. I am also of the opinion that it is the Decalfix and it is probably reacting with the carrier film or adhesive of the transfers (which may or may not be old) and transferring to the surface of the paint. As Phoenix has said, the paint film is very resistant to chemicals after 7 to 10 days, but it reaches maximum resistance after fully curing for 4 weeks.
Just to confirm what I had said earlier, that after 2 months, the paint on the loco should be impervious to most chemicals.... I have some old Phoenix colour chart sample patches. Admittedly well older than your paint, but I wiped over the GWR Post 1928 Green, repeatedly, with cellulose thinners, which as you know, will attack most types of paint. It had absolutely no effect on either the colour or the gloss level of the chip.
One thing you could try, to possibly save having to repaint, as it would help remove any deposits from the surface, is to use T-cut and then a car polish which is very mildly abrasive, like jewelers rouse, to bring the gloss back up.
Bob.
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Post by 92220 on Jul 29, 2021 8:24:05 GMT
Hi Norman,
I've just done a bit of googling of "Decalfix and problems with it". It does seem that you are not the only one to have this problem. There are quite a few who have have whiteish halos around transfers, where the carrier film has been, around the design, so it is almost certainly something to do with the Decalfix reacting with the carrier film or adhesive. After all, if the Decalfix softens the carrier film to form it over rivet heads, it is obviously "attacking" the film in some way, to soften it. What would happen if the transfer was left in the Decalfix? would it just disintegrate or go into solution?
Bob.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 29, 2021 16:42:29 GMT
Hi Bob.
Thank you for the time you spent on this, I do intend to try the T-Cut route before stripping it back.
I explained to the mate who lent me the Decalfix to bin it as he was going to use it on some very intricate (and expensive) models.
Was also in touch with Phoenix who seemed to focus the fault on the decals as they had never heard of this problem before.
Thanks again.
Norman.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 29, 2021 17:41:30 GMT
Hi All.
Right, I used Autosol metal polish first to see what happened, well it took all the bloom off, perfic, only left a dull surface, next I gave it a good polish with car polish and it has all disappeared it, now just needs another polish to get a better shine.
Thanks, will start again with Micro Sol when it arrives next week.
Norman.
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chris vine
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Post by chris vine on Jul 29, 2021 20:14:42 GMT
Hi Norman,
I really think you should use a cutting compound rather than a polish. EG the Fareclas type of material.
If you use a polish, it will leave a lovely non-stick surface for both the transfers (not) to stick to, and also any varnish you put over the top to stabilise it.
I would think that the fareclas would cut off any polish if you have already used it.
Chris.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 30, 2021 7:28:26 GMT
Hi Chris.
Totally agree, the polish was only used as a finer cutting compound anyway to get rid of the fine marks left from the autosol and to put back the paint shine, am going to wash with thinners and warm soapy water that should clean the surface ready for the transfers.
Norman
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chris vine
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Post by chris vine on Jul 30, 2021 9:15:40 GMT
Hi Norman,
That is a good idea, but I wonder if thinners will remove the polymer polish which will be on the surface?
Again, this is where a pile of small test pieces is so useful, you can try out these problems and try to avoid a disaster.
If it were me, I think I would cut back with a cutting compound without a resin polish and go from there.
meanwhile enjoy "The Journey"... Chris.
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Post by 92220 on Jul 30, 2021 9:39:44 GMT
Hi Chris.
Thinners, even white spirit/turps substitute, will take car polish off so the surface should be fine to take transfers. It is always a good idea to wipe over a couple of times before applying transfers though, just to make sure the polish is all off. I totally agree with you that test pieces are a good idea, especially when using different manufacturers products.
Hi Norman.
If you intend using warm soapy water, or washing up liquid, use that BEFORE you wipe down with the thinners. Soapy water, and washing=up liquid ALWAYS leaves a film on the surface that effects adhesion of paint and transfers. The thinners wipes should then leave a chemically clean surface.
Bob.
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tigermoth
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Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 30, 2021 11:12:05 GMT
Hi Chris.
Thanks for the input, "The Journey" that's what I am doing it for, always willing to learn, getting close to the end of this project and wondering what will be the next trip. Might try a traction engine next.
Hi Bob.
Yup, that's the way to do it, to quote a popular saying.
Norman.
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