timb
Statesman
Posts: 511
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Post by timb on Jul 31, 2021 9:36:13 GMT
Hi Guys, advice sought...
I went to our local BOC Gas and Gear shop to ask about Acetylene V Propane for copper silver-soldering use and found the 'expert' less than knowlegeable and quite unhelpful to say the least, I am hoping for some wise words from the collective.
I am building a comparitively small 'Lamb' boiler and although I am having some success with the air-propane (Sievert) setup I am using, it is quite clear that I will have to scale up for anything much bigger. I have followed Springcrocus' journey with his large Brit boiler and although he has some fantastic results with an air propane setup, I notice that he had auxilliary heat from a separate burner, although I can get assistance it would be nice to be self-sufficient in this respect.
Every welding forum I have looked at suggests that Acetylene is dangerous stuff and indeed more dangerous than propane/butane. Although I have no expert knowledge of these products I would imagine that a propane cylinder that explodes will create just as much damage as any other cylinder that explodes, and that propane and butane demand as much respect as Acetylene in their handling and use. Then there is the 'Oh well you have to inform the insurance if you have welding cylinders on the premises' - I have two propane bottles on the front of the caravan on the drive, another propane bottle in the garage connected to my Sievert torch and an almost unlimited supply of natural gas in the boiler for the central heating, indeed many of you will have patio heaters in the garden with a cylinder fitted - do all these have to be declared to the insurance??
On the whole it would appear that an Oxy-Propane setup would cope admirably with the task in hand (Lamb boiler) but an Oxy-Acetylene setup would give me many more options with a more efficient use of gas.
If anyone has experience or advice on this I would be grateful.
Tim
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jackrae
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,333
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Post by jackrae on Jul 31, 2021 11:12:35 GMT
All gases are "dangerous" and it's a case of risk management. I have used oxy-acetylene for more years than I care to mention and find it extremely useful where 'controlled area' high temperature is required. I used to use BOC for gas supplies, paying very high rental charges for the pleasure. Then I discovered Hobbyweld who simply charge a one-off refundable deposit after which you only pay for gas refills; a much more sensible arrangement for non-commercial users.
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Post by 92220 on Jul 31, 2021 12:55:51 GMT
Hi Tim.
Oxy-acetylene has a hotter maximum, and cleaner, flame than Oxy-propane. Oxy-butane is even lower, but is a cleaner flame than Oxy-propane. I have use Oxy-proane for many years and find it does everything I need, from tiny pin-point flames with a no 1 tip, and big flames with a No.10 tip. Oxy-propane is hot enough to weld steel, but Oxy-butane, though a cleaner flame, is not as hot as the Oxy-propane. As Jack says, though; all combustible gasses are "dangerous" so need care when using.
Bob.
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Post by davewoo on Jul 31, 2021 14:09:07 GMT
Hi Tim
I use both Oxy Propane and Oxy Acetylene, I used to make fabrications for vintage cars and classic bikes as a sideline to finance my M.E activities.
I used the Oxy Acetylene for gas welding and for bronze welding of steel components, I did try using Oxy Propane for this but it didn't seem hot enough. By bronze welding I mean using a brass filler rod to build up a nice fillet, sometmes called Sif Bronzing.
Oxy Propane I used for all other heating, including silver soldering on copper boilers after pre heating with Propane torch.
I've still got both but now I've retired I doubt if I will replace the Acetylene cylinder when it runs out
I'm sure you will find Oxy Propane more than adequate for any model engineering uses, although on the last boiler I helped to build, a 5" gauge Firefly, we didn't use Oxy Propane at all after discovering Sievert Cyclone burners which will stay alight inside a loco firebox, and the whole thing went remarkably well. I had problems with my 5" Brit boiler caused I think by uneven expansion causing cracks despite pre heating, fortunately one of the club members was a professional model boiler maker and he saved the day and completed the boiler for me. It was a very traumatic experience as at the time with two small mouths to feed I couldn't see how to replace all that expensive copper. I spent a happy couple of days flanging boiler plates as payment.
Dave
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jul 31, 2021 15:27:27 GMT
Tim I have both Sievert and Oxy/Propane (using Hobbyweld oxygen). My first port of call is always the Oxy/Propane for the reasons similar to Bob and Dave above. Unlike Dave I find it very successfully brazes using Silicone Bronze rods. What it will not do easily (OK on small parts) is Braze using Nickel Bronze rods which are what you would use for a space frame chassis or bike frame. It is also great for very quickly heating things to bend them and harden silver steel. For a boiler though you still need the background heat a Sievert torch can provide. Dave
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timb
Statesman
Posts: 511
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Post by timb on Jul 31, 2021 15:48:09 GMT
Excellent info, thanks all. What type of Oxy Propane gear are people using, I know the regulators and spark arrestors are different for propane but can the regular acetylene welding nozzels be used or am I looking at something specific?
Tim
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jem
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,062
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Post by jem on Jul 31, 2021 16:24:56 GMT
I used to use oxi act for cutting steel, but it is expensive and difficult to obtain now here in Mallorca, so I use oxi butane which cuts steel with no problem, up to 15mm anyway. you do need a different set of nozzles though. So I presume you will need a new set of nozzles for brazing.
best wishes
Jem
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tigermoth
Seasoned Member
Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 31, 2021 17:15:32 GMT
On the 5 boilers I helped build, and one of them was a 7 1/4 A4 (bloody big and heavy) we used oxy/Acet with a big Propane burner for background heat, taking them up to heat steadily with the propane first.
As for insurance, I think to be on the safe side I would defiantly inform the insurance company (I also as a welder used oxy/acet and oxy/pro for gouging out) never had any problems with safety but you do get the odd pipe blow (blow back valves fitted) or cut by a piece of falling steel etc (it does happen), yup, gas can be a dangerous thing but keep your gear in good order and the bottles tied up in a cradle of some sort (as a falling bottle that knocks the regulator off goes up the workshop like a torpedo) yes have seen it happen.
I think insurance companies take into account recreation gas usage but do not think that would go as far as bottles in the workshop/garage.
Norman.
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don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
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Post by don9f on Jul 31, 2021 19:11:56 GMT
and the bottles tied up in a cradle of some sort (as a falling bottle that knocks the regulator off goes up the workshop like a torpedo) yes have seen it happen. Norman. Agreed.....the lads on the TV show “Mythbusters” rigged up a device to knock the valve off a full oxygen bottle that was laid in front of a specially built wall for the test. It demolished this wall and also went through the workshop’s real wall! I use oxy-propane as well as just propane in my workshop and +1 for Hobbyweld as an oxy supplier. There is a place just a few minutes from me, so works well. Cheers Don
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tigermoth
Seasoned Member
Birthday 27 Aug 1941
Posts: 141
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Post by tigermoth on Jul 31, 2021 21:52:27 GMT
Another one was the retaining ring on an old lorry wheel, if the retaining ring was not seated properly when you inflated, it could blow off and go through the roof of the workshop(corrugated asbestos) and cut a perfect ring through, (seen the results of that).
I know Health and safety is a bit ott now days, but you learned to be a lot more savvy in those days, seems that everything is some one else's fault and an insurance claim now days. Rant over.
Norman.
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Jul 31, 2021 22:09:51 GMT
I use the bespoke propane nozzles from welderswarehouse, although normal nozzles work I find them a bit more tricky to get going. Dave
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Post by Jim on Jul 31, 2021 23:11:41 GMT
Like the others here I now use Oxy-Propane having bought my D sized Oxy cylinder from the local Gasweld store on a swap and go system. The Propane is the bog standard BBQ gas bottle.
In terms of kit I bought a Propane pressure regulator for the Propane cylinder and the appropriate blow back safety valves along with a set of Propane gas tips to replace the Oxy Acetylene tips on the hand set. The propane tips have a small recess on the end that I'm told stops the tendency for the Oxy Propane flame to drift off the the standard Oxy Acetylene tips, if that makes sense.
I set the flow pressures to about 15psi light the propane and turn the flame down until there is no black sooty tip to the flame at that point I turn on the Oxy until I get the typical blue flame with an inner cone about a half inch long.
I've found the hottest part of the flame is about a half inch out from the inner cone.
When doing the Britannia's boiler I found I still needed a big Sievert Propane torch to provide an general source of heat while using the Oxy Propane for the high localised heat to flow the silver solder though the joints.
I also use the Oxy Propane in lieu of an arc welder to bronze braze/weld steel components such as the frame for the ride on wagon and it's great plus I can't arc weld for sour apples.
All masked up
Jim
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Post by 92220 on Aug 1, 2021 7:59:45 GMT
My torch is Aga (like the cooker). My regulator I bought off Ebay because the one I originally bought from a welding supplier, packed up and the supplier had closed down. My standard propane torch is Sievert. The Oxy-proane gets used a lot more than the Seivert as the flame is much hotter and much more controllable. For large jobs though, the Seivert beats the Oxy-p for heating everything up (like a boiler), and making the actual joint can then be done with the Oxy-p. I have also lined my hearth with 25mm thick Vermiculite blocks, with a double layer on the bottom, to conserve heat.
Bob.
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2021 8:24:57 GMT
I don't know if I missed it, but has anyone said what torch they use?
I have been happy with Sievert and propane, but have considered oxy-propane where I need a more intense local heat. I have found there are 2 Hobbyweld depots about 1/2 hour from me, so I can get the oxygen, but some guidance on the kit to use would be helpful.
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Post by Jim on Aug 1, 2021 10:21:30 GMT
I don't know if I missed it, but has anyone said what torch they use? I have been happy with Sievert and propane, but have considered oxy-propane where I need a more intense local heat. I have found there are 2 Hobbyweld depots about 1/2 hour from me, so I can get the oxygen, but some guidance on the kit to use would be helpful. For what it's worth Steve I use the hoses and hand set from my Oxy Acetylene out fit.
I fitted the swan neck extension to the hand piece as the Oxy-Propane tips have the same thread as the Acetylene tips so can screw onto the end of the swan neck extension pipe.
As mentioned I bought a Propane pressure gauge flow regulator for the Propane cylinder and the Oxygen Cylinder has the standard cylinder pressure gauge and a flow pressure gauge regulator.
As an essential safety precaution I fitted two blow back check valves which are fitted to the delivery hoses.
A friend of mine who was starting from scratch bought an Oxy-Propane set from BOC.
Jim
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2021 10:34:17 GMT
Thanks Jim. So the kit is basically an oxy-acetylene torch, but with different nozzles. That should be easy to source.
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Post by Jim on Aug 1, 2021 12:41:29 GMT
Thanks Jim. So the kit is basically an oxy-acetylene torch, but with different nozzles. That should be easy to source. That's correct Steve.
A friend of mine uses the Oxy-Acetylene flame cutting hand set with its multi flame heating/cutting nozzle to pre heat the job in certian situations. BUT! as he cautions 'For Gawd's sake dont' hit the Oxy lever'.
I haven't tried it but Oxy-Propane can also cut metal in a similar way that Oxy-Acetylene does hence my friend's caution.
If it would help I can post some photos of my set up here.
Jim
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kipford
Statesman
Building a Don Young 5" Gauge Aspinall Class 27
Posts: 566
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Post by kipford on Aug 1, 2021 13:09:45 GMT
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stevep
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,070
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2021 16:17:51 GMT
Thanks guys.
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Post by davewoo on Aug 2, 2021 6:30:39 GMT
Very interested to see that there is a propane heating nozzle (pepperpot)available from Welders Warehouse, will give one a try, I find these nozzles very usefull for heating and bending, but the one I've got (BOC) will not work on propane only acetylene. I've always relied on a small welding supply shop that was local to where I used to live, looking online has opened up a whole new avenue of welding things I never new existed, thanks Kipford! I do manage to bronze weld with oxy-propane, but I can't get the nice even ripples that people expect to see, but thats probably down to my lack of technique, maybe I should practice a bit more with the propane. Interesting thread this. Dave
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