keith9f
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Post by keith9f on Nov 4, 2021 14:52:08 GMT
I'm in the process of building a Les Warnett design 9f which I acquired from eBay ! I have a couple of questions that I am hoping someone could help me out with? 1. With wheels and couplings turning freely, I still cannot make the wheels turn under air pressure through cylinders. The air flows through hash up and straight out of exhaust at bottom of cylinders... I have tried adjusting spool valves, but makes no difference ? Any advice on what else I can do ? Or need to check for ?
2. Boiler at present has no bottom feeds, can I fit one without silver solder, as I don't want to melt existing solder at foundation ring and other nearby stays !
Many thanks in advance for anyone who can help with the above in anyway
Regards Keith
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JonL
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WWSME (Wiltshire)
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Post by JonL on Nov 4, 2021 21:33:00 GMT
Welcome Keith.
1) I wonder if the valves are sealing properly? What material have you used for the valve piston seals? As you say timing and valve adjustment comes next, but if they air is just going straight out the port the seals are my first guess.
2) Do you need bottom feeds on that design? I'm guessing its just like the Britannia that has two top feeds, is that not sufficient?
I'm one of the site novices so I'm sure someone more clued up will be along in a minute, but I suspect they will ask similar questions.
Cheers,
Jon.
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barlowworks
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Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
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Post by barlowworks on Nov 4, 2021 23:53:38 GMT
The Britannia boiler does indeed have two top feeds for the two injectors but also two bottom feeds for the axle pump and the hand pump feed from the tender.
Mike
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oldnorton
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5" gauge LMS enthusiast
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Post by oldnorton on Nov 5, 2021 9:23:10 GMT
Hello Keith Welcome to the forum. I am sure we can all chip in with thoughts to help you with a discussion of your new engine. Regarding the constant loss of air up the chimney there are several potential causes for this - most common might be valves in their bores, valve sleeves in the blocks, main piston rings or packings. If you can tell us what the previous builder might have used, or have you built these? Is the engine a Winson or Modelworks kit build? Not having bottom feeds on the boiler backhead sounds unusual. What numbers are on the backhead to help identify the boiler as a home or commercial build? If there are none it's not the end of the world as you can tee feeds to the top clacks with some non-return valves added. I don't think any of us will encourage you to thread new valves into the backhead copper; it used to be common practice but is a bit frowned on now. Technically, if a pressure shell is modified it has to be retested and the inspector might want to consider the new modifications. If you can tell us as much as you know, and your previous experience, I does help stop us from making wrong assumptions. Posting photos will be a big help. Get an Imgur account ibb.co which is an easy and free way of uploading. Norm
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JonL
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WWSME (Wiltshire)
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Post by JonL on Nov 5, 2021 12:18:00 GMT
I will learn to keep my mouth shut eventually! Valid points from the members after me.
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Post by Cro on Nov 5, 2021 12:36:19 GMT
Keith, welcome!
You say the exhausts at the bottom of the cylinders, do you mean the drain cocks? It may help to close these but during timing it could help to have them operational as some people like to use them to check for leaks and check the timing.
Follow Norms advice and join a photo hosting site and get some photos and videos uploaded, start a new thread in "general chat" section where most regular posts go and then more advice can be given.
I have a 9f that started life as a Winson kit so will offer help where I can.
Adam
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barlowworks
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Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
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Post by barlowworks on Nov 5, 2021 15:18:54 GMT
I will learn to keep my mouth shut eventually! Valid points from the members after me. Don’t get down on yourself Jon. Anyone who is prepared to help a total stranger is to be commended in my book. Mike
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oldnorton
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5" gauge LMS enthusiast
Posts: 688
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Post by oldnorton on Nov 6, 2021 10:56:02 GMT
I will learn to keep my mouth shut eventually! Valid points from the members after me. Don’t get down on yourself Jon. Anyone who is prepared to help a total stranger is to be commended in my book. Mike Agreed !! You said sensible and helpful things Jon. You even said that you 'guessed' at the backheads which is absolutely fine. I would much rather read that than the sometimes forceful views of the convinced Norm
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Post by claire9fkeith on Nov 6, 2021 20:18:49 GMT
Thank you all so much for your help And advice so far☺️ Much appreciated!
The cylinders, valves and pistons were all ready built and intact when I acquired the the model, as I am only a carpenter and joiner with a passion for steam locos it may take a bit of time to,take the cylinders apart to answer some of your questions. The model is a Les Warnet design, built by an old man from Wakefield who sadly passed away, so I cannot get any info from him! It is deffo not model works If I don't need bottom feeds in the boiler, that is good enough for me ! I will take photos of the loco and also boiler numbers etc as it will make it much easier for everyone to see what I am asking about! Thank again everyone
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barlowworks
Statesman
Now finished my other projects, Britannia here I come
Posts: 873
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Post by barlowworks on Nov 7, 2021 3:56:47 GMT
Also check out no23mk2 on YouTube. He is building a Les Warnett 9F and is documenting his journey. Very useful.
Mike
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don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
Posts: 960
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Post by don9f on Nov 7, 2021 20:38:47 GMT
Hi, I have a Les Warnett 9F built and operated by myself. I would also please ask you to give us a little more info on the air passing “straight out of exhaust at bottom of cylinders”. If you mean out of the holes where the cylinder draincocks fit....what happens if you try to help the wheels turn, does the air alternate between the two holes? Does any air actually pass up the blastpipe? Be careful that any sudden movement doesn’t trap your fingers!Regarding the “bottom bushes”, my engine was built in the 1980’s and I only have the two clack bushes high up near the front of the barrel, as per the Warnett drawings (don’t know if these have ever been updated). The only bush at the bottom is on the throatplate for the blowdown valve (incidentally drawn on the wrong side). I don’t have an axle pump....again not provided for on the drawings....and no hand pump in the tender. I only use two injectors, but as always this is personal preference and is entirely your choice etc. The Warnett design produces a fine machine and the level of finish detail applied....fittings, platework, cab etc. again is entirely up to you. Regards and look forward to hearing more Don
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Post by chris vine on Nov 7, 2021 20:45:22 GMT
Hi Keith,
Just a stupid thing not to forget: When you have the airline connected to the cylinders, do watch out for your fingers!!
There are plenty of places you can get them trapped if the works suddenly do half a turn while you are trying to push it round. EG between connecting rod and coupling rods...
There if it does move suddenly, there is plenty of force to do some damage to a finger.
Silly question no 2: Is it the same in full forwards and full reverse gear? That might tell us something.
If you have a small compressor, and maybe a small pipe feeding the engine, then the drain valves being open may be robbing most of the pressure.
Other thoughts: If you connect the air and set to to perhaps 10 or 20 psi, then turn the wheels (without fingers getting trapped, does it attempt to turn a part revolution? does the escaping air sound different?
There is quite a bit of experimenting which you can do...
Chris.
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Post by 92220 on Nov 8, 2021 19:41:18 GMT
I have the complete set of magazines with the Warnet articles in them. If you need any help from the articles, just let me know. I am not building to the Warnet design I'm building my 9f to an almost full set of works drawings, but I collected the Warnett magazines just out of curiosity. Les Warnett was a draughtsman at British Railways, and I believe that his drawings have a lot fewer errors that other people's designs, but he has made errors. Although he was a B.R. draughtsman, and had access to the full set of B.R.works drawings, he has made a few mistakes that perhaps he should not have....like the length of the boiler and smokebox. But don't worry about that because somehow his smokebox length got increased by the amount that his boiler was short. It's not much and will have no impact on the appearance. Generally his design ends up with a very decent working model. Good luck with your project and as said earlier, join up to a photo hosting site and post some photos on here. That would be great!!
Bob.
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keith9f
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Post by keith9f on Dec 4, 2021 13:20:26 GMT
Sorry it has taken so long to reply to your questions, I’m not great at modern technology so my daughter Claire posts on my behalf. She has taken photos of my 9f and will upload them for me at the bottom of this. My 9f is definitely not a Winsons/Modelworks . I have located a manufacturer stamp on the boiler (no:4828911) so I assumed it was professionally built although I don’t know who by. The valves and pistons are all brass and correct measurements as on the Les Warnett plans. I have removed back plates from cylinders which seem to have airways in the right places. I have cleaned and put back together, tested again on air with the same result. All the air blows straight through cylinders and up the exhaust branch without moving the wheels. Are there any members on here who live in the Milton Keynes area who would be willing to take a look, or is there anywhere in the area I could take it and get it checked over ? I am obviously willing to pay anyone who could help me ! Also slightly off topic , could anyone make use of a 5” Modelworks Duchess bottom half, complete with cylinders, frames, wheels and coupling rods, eccentrics.. all complete. They went bust just before despatching the valve gear? ibb.co/BzMC2cHibb.co/YPYfKtdibb.co/XtXDnWgibb.co/T1XJzkRibb.co/0QrD2mGibb.co/Fsd106Cibb.co/4Nm1Jnvibb.co/wKwRF3fibb.co/LSCRd5kibb.co/XyGrQ9Wibb.co/yqpLTpWibb.co/3yn3NyLibb.co/tb7rdchibb.co/3Nn106s
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Post by 92220 on Dec 5, 2021 9:48:07 GMT
Hi Keith If you want to post more photos on here, using one of the free hosting sites is probably a lot easier, once set up, and the photo comes up on the post as you will see in other threads. Imgur or Flickr are probably the most popular on here. It's just a case of upload a photo, or series of photos to the hosting site, and when uploaded, copy the BBCode, for each photo, from whatever host site you use, into your post and the photo will come up as a photo not a web address. There have been a number of threads about posting photos on here. Some can be accessed at the top of the General Chat section, under "Posting Photos". If you have any problems, send me a PM and I'll try and help. Bob. Edit. Sorry Keith. I didn't realise that ibb.co is a hosting site, 'till I have just looked it up. Somewhere on there, for each individual photo, there should be somewhere that gives you a BBCode that you can add to your post to show the photo actually on your post, on here. I've just done this on ibb.co, so you would be able to as well:-
I have to admit, that was far easier than either Flickr or Imgur....and I'm not even registered on ibb.co yet. Think I will have to look into that site a bit more!!! free to use images online
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don9f
Statesman
Les Warnett 9F, Martin Evans “Jinty”, a part built “Austin 7” and now a part built Springbok B1.
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Post by don9f on Dec 5, 2021 17:34:21 GMT
I would have had a look, but am unfortunately about 100 miles away! If air is indeed blowing straight to exhaust, I would first suggest maybe testing each cylinder independently. Make a different temporary air connection to just one side and set the valve bobbin such that both valve ports are closed, then see what happens....if air still blows to exhaust, there could be a problem or flaw in the casting, or with the fit/sealing of the valve liners into the cylinder casting. They are definitely Les Warnett cylinder blocks and the separate valve liners should be properly sealed into the main castings. One thing you don’t seem to have mentioned or shown photos of are the main pistons and their rings (or packings?)....is there any chance air is leaking past from one side of the pistons to the other? Please keep us posted....
Cheers Don
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Post by 92220 on Dec 6, 2021 9:35:29 GMT
Hi Keith. To put photos into a post, so that they show the picture on the thread, go to your album in ibb and click on the photo you want. On thye right hand side of the photo, there will be a series of icons. Click on the second one down which is "Embeded codes", and choose BBCode Medium Linked, from the box that appears. highlight the long code that is shown, and then click on "COPY". Paste that code into your post on here and the photo should appear on the page here, when you post it. I hope I have described it correctly as there should be a photo appear after this text. Bob Edit:- It did appear! so that is how you do it.
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keith9f
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Post by keith9f on Dec 6, 2021 19:43:06 GMT
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keith9f
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Post by keith9f on Dec 6, 2021 19:43:37 GMT
That worked ! Thanks Bob
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keith9f
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Post by keith9f on Dec 9, 2021 16:20:03 GMT
I would have had a look, but am unfortunately about 100 miles away! If air is indeed blowing straight to exhaust, I would first suggest maybe testing each cylinder independently. Make a different temporary air connection to just one side and set the valve bobbin such that both valve ports are closed, then see what happens....if air still blows to exhaust, there could be a problem or flaw in the casting, or with the fit/sealing of the valve liners into the cylinder casting. They are definitely Les Warnett cylinder blocks and the separate valve liners should be properly sealed into the main castings. One thing you don’t seem to have mentioned or shown photos of are the main pistons and their rings (or packings?)....is there any chance air is leaking past from one side of the pistons to the other? Please keep us posted.... Cheers Don
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