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Post by doubletop on Mar 21, 2022 5:37:47 GMT
Nice work, your one piece whistle shield looks a lot neater than the extended one. Whats the purpose of the shield out of interest? Very much agree, though Steve's pictures do explain the situation perfectly. The 14xx cab stands much higher above the firebox top than almost any other GWR loco, so the standard whistle shield pressing was not tall enough. Rather than tool up for a new pressing, it looks like they just took a standard item and added a bit of bent tin to make it taller. Makes perfect sense. The purpose BTW, to answer the question, was to direct the whistle exhaust over the cab roof, thus to prevent it fogging up the spectacle glasses. There is a usually a good reason for everything, short of invading Ukraine... Gary It looked to me that they just got another whistle sheild out of stores and tacked it on the back of the existing one. "Another job sheet closed, next...." Pete
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Post by doubletop on Mar 23, 2022 8:56:30 GMT
No sooner had I said I was trying my best not to get painted into a corner with the riveting that’s where I found myself. The riveting tools I had made with the castings from Switzerland had done me well up to now. They were good at doing large open joints, but when two sheets at right angles were to be riveted together with the ¼” angle they just couldn’t get into the corners because the movable snap was set too far back. I did think I would need to resort to the conventional snaps and a hammer but even that wouldn’t work when other parts were closely located, e.g the tank baffles. I mulled over a solution could I do something with pliers or mole grips but realised I needed something with more mechanical advantage and came up with this. Really based on the Swiss design but at right angles and with a simple cam operating the moveable snap. You’ll notice the black tubular handles. Mk1 just didn’t have enough mechanical gain to close even the 3/64” rivets. A length of conduit came to the rescue, salvaged from the house re-wire 20 years ago. Nothing flash, the moveable handle is literally slipped over the original handle. Operation is by pulling the handles apart, rather than squeezing them together. Originally, I only intended it to be used to close the 10 rivets holding the two right-hand (rear) bulkheads to the angle on the outer skin. It became obvious it was more useful than that and allowed me to finish off all the remaining rivets on the tank. Pete
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Gary L
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Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Mar 23, 2022 23:30:37 GMT
No sooner had I said I was trying my best not to get painted into a corner with the riveting that’s where I found myself. The riveting tools I had made with the castings from Switzerland had done me well up to now. They were good at doing large open joints, but when two sheets at right angles were to be riveted together with the ¼” angle they just couldn’t get into the corners because the movable snap was set too far back. I did think I would need to resort to the conventional snaps and a hammer but even that wouldn’t work when other parts were closely located, e.g the tank baffles. I mulled over a solution could I do something with pliers or mole grips but realised I needed something with more mechanical advantage and came up with this. Really based on the Swiss design but at right angles and with a simple cam operating the moveable snap. You’ll notice the black tubular handles. Mk1 just didn’t have enough mechanical gain to close even the 3/64” rivets. A length of conduit came to the rescue, salvaged from the house re-wire 20 years ago. Nothing flash, the moveable handle is literally slipped over the original handle. Operation is by pulling the handles apart, rather than squeezing them together. Originally, I only intended it to be used to close the 10 rivets holding the two right-hand (rear) bulkheads to the angle on the outer skin. It became obvious it was more useful than that and allowed me to finish off all the remaining rivets on the tank. Pete The aircraft people, who this form of rivetting tool was designed for, use an offset set (IYSWIM) for this sort of close work. Basically the same as the inline standard sets except bent outwards. I made a pair for mine, and it worked, though they were too loose in the sockets and tended to swivel out of line, which was awkward. Possibly the OEM version has some crafty mechanism to stop this, but I can’t tell from the photos, which is all I’ve seen. Gary
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Post by doubletop on Mar 24, 2022 8:03:30 GMT
The aircraft people, who this form of rivetting tool was designed for, use an offset set (IYSWIM) for this sort of close work. Basically the same as the inline standard sets except bent outwards. I made a pair for mine, and it worked, though they were too loose in the sockets and tended to swivel out of line, which was awkward. Possibly the OEM version has some crafty mechanism to stop this, but I can’t tell from the photos, which is all I’ve seen. Gary I think ISWYM. I showed some of my ex RAF mates what I was doing, they were airframe techs. Commenting on the Swiss riveting tool they asked what I planned to do when I got into a tight spot. I said I didn't know because I hadn't got to that point. Now I've been there I'll ask them next time we are on Zoom. I have made some long snaps out of lenghths of 3/16 silver steel that have helped get into awkward spaces. But balancing the whole job on a rivet head in a normal snap held in the vice and then trying to close the other side of the rivet with the long snap was a bit perilous, especially when you've only got two hands. Pete
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JonL
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WWSME (Wiltshire)
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Post by JonL on Mar 26, 2022 17:00:18 GMT
I did my aircraft apprenticeship using these tools, but got streamed into avionics so didn't ever end up using them professionally. Last time I used rivet squeezers was on my traction engine wheels!
I don't recall ever seeing the type of jaws you mention, I think the close work tended to be done manually at our place.
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Gary L
Elder Statesman
Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Mar 27, 2022 0:01:08 GMT
I did my aircraft apprenticeship using these tools, but got streamed into avionics so didn't ever end up using them professionally. Last time I used rivet squeezers was on my traction engine wheels! I don't recall ever seeing the type of jaws you mention, I think the close work tended to be done manually at our place. Like these?Gary
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JonL
Elder Statesman
WWSME (Wiltshire)
Posts: 2,902
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Post by JonL on Mar 27, 2022 23:52:47 GMT
I did my aircraft apprenticeship using these tools, but got streamed into avionics so didn't ever end up using them professionally. Last time I used rivet squeezers was on my traction engine wheels! I don't recall ever seeing the type of jaws you mention, I think the close work tended to be done manually at our place. Like these?Gary Blimey yes, now I see them you are right. They were held in holes in a block of wood in stores. I luckily never really had to use them.
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Post by doubletop on Mar 29, 2022 19:17:32 GMT
I did my aircraft apprenticeship using these tools, but got streamed into avionics so didn't ever end up using them professionally. Last time I used rivet squeezers was on my traction engine wheels! I don't recall ever seeing the type of jaws you mention, I think the close work tended to be done manually at our place. I agree, all I can remember in aircraft hangars was the sound of air driven riveting guns. Tools like these may have been used in the airframe servicing bays where components/sub-assemblies were serviced. Once I had the opportunity to walk down the F16 production line at General Dynamics in Fort Worth Texas. The building was over a mile long. Sheet metal went in one end and completed F16's went out the other for flight test. In the early stages the small components were pressed/formed and riveted into sub-assemblies like tail fins, ailerons etc. An interesting experience. Pete
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Post by doubletop on Mar 29, 2022 19:23:42 GMT
I did my aircraft apprenticeship using these tools, but got streamed into avionics so didn't ever end up using them professionally. Last time I used rivet squeezers was on my traction engine wheels! I don't recall ever seeing the type of jaws you mention, I think the close work tended to be done manually at our place. Like these?Gary Are they the offset adaptors for your squeezer or for an air gun riveter? I would suggest that on an aircaft squeezers would be of limited use. The rivet could be feet away from the internal access panel. You'd need two people to do the job. One with the rivet gun and the other with a dolly. Pete
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Mar 30, 2022 0:45:28 GMT
Are they the offset adaptors for your squeezer or for an air gun riveter? I would suggest that on an aircaft squeezers would be of limited use. The rivet could be feet away from the internal access panel. You'd need two people to do the job. One with the rivet gun and the other with a dolly. Pete I've no idea at all about either point. But the squeezers are certainly sold by suppliers of tools for aircraft fitters (and nowhere else as far as I can see). My impression is they are used by the light aircraft repair trade. They come with jaw swallows of up to 4" though 3" is a more general maximum. I can't somehow see them being used on a F16 assembly line! I'm just happy that they are the bees knees for GWR cab rivets! Gary
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Post by doubletop on Mar 30, 2022 8:22:13 GMT
............ I'm just happy that they are the bees knees for GWR cab rivets! Gary I have to agree with you there. I was always in awe of those model locos where the builder had installed thousands of rivets. That is part of the reason I decided to do this project, to find out how to do it. OK, as we both used laser cut parts we didn't have to drill a large number of holes, but I've done plenty. However, with these tools the riveting itself was relatively easy and I’d even say enjoyable. Pete
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Post by doubletop on Apr 3, 2022 8:15:13 GMT
So what have I been up to? The work on the tanks continued, I was having trouble with getting the right hand tank to sit correctly . At one point I was having self-doubts, Had I correctly located the tanks on the running boards? Quite a considerable amount of time was spent checking the job and confirming the CAD model was correct. I just wasn’t sure. The problem being that the cab roof didn’t locate correctly, whereas it had in the past. I tracked it down to the reach rod being trapped between the Belpaire wrapper and the tank Although my drawings indicated that there would be sufficient room in the area of the ‘waist’ of the Belpaire it wasn’t the case. It was eventually solved by extending the tunnel in the tank. Fortunately I’ve made the tunnel from a length of 1” square brass tube with one side removed. It isn’t fixed in the tank or to the inner side. It just sits in a slot in the baffles so can easily b replaced. As you will recall my initial objective with this project was to ensure that the John Smith kit would fit to a Dart built to Marting Evans drawings. That was why I jumped from running pates to tanks, to roof to bunker and back again. Now I had the tanks structure finished I realised the only other part that confirmed the relationships was the strap over the boiler between the tanks. There is no drawing for this supplied in the John Smith set only the dimensions of the pad on the right hand tank and a small photo in issue 4480 of the Model Engineer articles. With a bit of licence I came up with my own version. Once again with the DRO smooth arc function I cut the leg of the “T” from 1/16” plate. Actually, the offcut from the right-hand tank top. And with a 1/16” slot drill cut a groove in the strip that would form the top of the “T” ( only cut with the job between the vice jaws, moving it down as I went) Soldered together. The ends of the mounting pads need trimming here. Installed The John Smith drawings have 2x 8BA studs and 2x6BA studs. I’ve only installed the 6BA studs on the tanks. The 8BA are dummies on the strap itself. The tank to tank spacing between the 6BA studs is exactly 9. That is the spacing on the strap and I have the studs located on the tanks according to the drawings and it all goes together nicely. Further confirmation of that everything is in the right place. While doing all this I started thinking about the tank, bunker and cab beading. Gary L had Ed at Model Engineers Laser to do his so I did the drawings and sent the DXF files off to Ed. Only to realise that I’d made a mistake, plus if I was going to get Ed to do the beading for me what else could he do? The MEL website says that their equipment ignores white lines in the DXF files as far as I could tell that is all that Fusion 360 provides in the DXF files. I started to investigate how to change the colours. Autocad provide a utility DWG TrueView that you can review the DXF files and change the line colours but for some reason you can’t save the files. I couldn’t find a utility anywhere to make the changes. In the end I found the specification for the DXF file format and then edited the files in MS Word!! I’ve sent a sample to Ed and he says the files are fine. Now I'm going to take a break from major sub assemblies concentrate on small parts. To make a start I've installed the parts I have done already. Pete
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Apr 3, 2022 12:56:01 GMT
[Snip] While doing all this I started thinking about the tank, bunker and cab beading. Gary L had Ed at Model Engineers Laser to do his so I did the drawings and sent the DXF files off to Ed. Only to realise that I’d made a mistake, plus if I was going to get Ed to do the beading for me what else could he do? The MEL website says that their equipment ignores white lines in the DXF files as far as I could tell that is all that Fusion 360 provides in the DXF files. I started to investigate how to change the colours. Autocad provide a utility DWG TrueView that you can review the DXF files and change the line colours but for some reason you can’t save the files. I couldn’t find a utility anywhere to make the changes. In the end I found the specification for the DXF file format and then edited the files in MS Word!! I’ve sent a sample to Ed and he says the files are fine. Hi Pete It might depend on which app you use to create your DXF or DWG, but there is a better way, which is to use “layers”. (Some apps call these a different name, just to keep us all confused) In the package I use (CADintosh) I can set various parameters and colours for each sort of line (construction, centerline, dimensions, solid line etc). The parameters include which layer the line is drawn on, and every line type has its own unique layer. In the default view, all layers are visible, so you can’t tell they are there. The big advantage is that the layers can be switched on and off very quickly, depending on what you want to see or edit. Once defined, and saved in your default or template document, you don’t have to think about them again. When I send the file to Ed, I now save it with only ‘solid lines’ visible, and these are the ones that define the cut. I could just as easily delete the layers that contain info that would confuse the cutting, and originally that is what I did, but it makes it harder if amendments become necessary. This isn’t a ‘special’ method; I always understood it was the normal way of working. The trouble with changing line colour to white is that not only the machine but also humans might be unable to see them without changing other parameters (like background colour). No doubt Ed will also comment soon. HTH Gary
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Post by doubletop on Apr 3, 2022 21:09:40 GMT
[Snip] While doing all this I started thinking about the tank, bunker and cab beading. Gary L had Ed at Model Engineers Laser to do his so I did the drawings and sent the DXF files off to Ed. Only to realise that I’d made a mistake, plus if I was going to get Ed to do the beading for me what else could he do? The MEL website says that their equipment ignores white lines in the DXF files as far as I could tell that is all that Fusion 360 provides in the DXF files. I started to investigate how to change the colours. Autocad provide a utility DWG TrueView that you can review the DXF files and change the line colours but for some reason you can’t save the files. I couldn’t find a utility anywhere to make the changes. In the end I found the specification for the DXF file format and then edited the files in MS Word!! I’ve sent a sample to Ed and he says the files are fine. Hi Pete It might depend on which app you use to create your DXF or DWG, but there is a better way, which is to use “layers”. (Some apps call these a different name, just to keep us all confused) In the package I use (CADintosh) I can set various parameters and colours for each sort of line (construction, centerline, dimensions, solid line etc). The parameters include which layer the line is drawn on, and every line type has its own unique layer. In the default view, all layers are visible, so you can’t tell they are there. The big advantage is that the layers can be switched on and off very quickly, depending on what you want to see or edit. Once defined, and saved in your default or template document, you don’t have to think about them again. When I send the file to Ed, I now save it with only ‘solid lines’ visible, and these are the ones that define the cut. I could just as easily delete the layers that contain info that would confuse the cutting, and originally that is what I did, but it makes it harder if amendments become necessary. This isn’t a ‘special’ method; I always understood it was the normal way of working. The trouble with changing line colour to white is that not only the machine but also humans might be unable to see them without changing other parameters (like background colour). No doubt Ed will also comment soon. HTH Gary Gary The problem is Fusion 360 not having the ability to configure the layers. It does produce layers OUTER_PROFILES, INTERIOR_PROFILES, BEND and BEND_EXTENT and they all default to white. In DWG TrueView you can change the layer colours but I cannot find a way of saving the DXF file with the layer colours set and I couldn't find a utility that enabled me to change the colours. So edited the DXF file in MS Word by adding the Color Number (62) and the Autocad Color Index (ACI) code 0=black, 2=Yellow, 3=Green, 4= Light Blue, 5=Dark Blue, 6=Magenta, 7=White. Ed requires, Green for cut lines, Red for notes or dimensions, Magenta for etching lines or centre spots for holes, and yellow to make a single straight cut through a fold line to weaken it. My approach was to do the edits by entity rather than by layer as it was easier to identify each entity as each is tagged OUTER_PROFILES, INTERIOR_PROFILES, BEND and BEND_EXTENT adding 62 and the colour code after each tag in the file does the trick e.g. OUTER_PROFILES 62 3 There should be a way of doing it by layer but the layers aren't tagged with the name so I'd need to do some nore investigation to work out how to make the changes Pete
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Gary L
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Post by Gary L on Apr 3, 2022 22:41:44 GMT
Hi Pete
3D CAD is way outside my comfort zone, not to mention competence zone! Logically layers are 2D constructs (as indeed is laser-cutting.) Fusion 360 does sound like a very clunky way to achieve what you need for laser cutting, but if you are used to it you won't want to start on a new learning curve for something else.
By way of comparison, I never submit multicolour files to Ed, just black lines for cutting on a visible layer and a single dimension to validate the scale. The job always comes back perfectly. I don't know how much processing (if any) he does to my files, he has never complained about it.
Gary
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Post by doubletop on Apr 4, 2022 1:28:39 GMT
Hi Pete 3D CAD is way outside my comfort zone, not to mention competence zone! Logically layers are 2D constructs (as indeed is laser-cutting.) Fusion 360 does sound like a very clunky way to achieve what you need for laser cutting, but if you are used to it you won't want to start on a new learning curve for something else. By way of comparison, I never submit multicolour files to Ed, just black lines for cutting on a visible layer and a single dimension to validate the scale. The job always comes back perfectly. I don't know how much processing (if any) he does to my files, he has never complained about it. Gary The free/personal version does have limitations on some functions and maybe thats what I am experiencing. Autodesk defined the DXF standard back in the days of 2D AutoCad so they must know what they are doing. Doing the beading in 3D does make it easier to define the parts that go around corners and ensure the tabs and slots line up. Once the curves have been definded the 3D CAD will unfold the curved parts into flat patterns for laser cutting. My original request to Ed for the beading was just tab and slot files and with the white lines, even though some did contain BEND and BEND_EXTENT layers, Ed was OK with that. When I included some other jobs I asked what I would need to do for him to 'etch' fold lines and then he told me about yellow for fold and magenta for etch. I then realised I may need to be more specific. Being able to include the colours at the entity level does allow you do decide on a case by case basis even to the level of sying 'ignore this cut", 'etch line here' 'fold cut on this line'. I haven't tried it but I guess you could add some text and rather than have it in red, make it magenta and the word will be etched. It baffles me why there isn't an obvious tool to do all this, which probably means there is but I haven't found it. Pete
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Post by melaser on Apr 4, 2022 9:32:57 GMT
We can still handle plain black/white line, and paper drawings too even! Having digital files saves me time which is in very short supply, and having it pre-coloured just saves me a little more. rest assured, I'm not about to start refusing drawings!
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Post by doubletop on Apr 4, 2022 21:19:02 GMT
We can still handle plain black/white line, and paper drawings too even! Having digital files saves me time which is in very short supply, and having it pre-coloured just saves me a little more. rest assured, I'm not about to start refusing drawings! Ed Just emailed you and then found this Pete
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Gary L
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Posts: 1,208
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Post by Gary L on Apr 4, 2022 23:14:08 GMT
Hi Pete 3D CAD is way outside my comfort zone, not to mention competence zone! Logically layers are 2D constructs (as indeed is laser-cutting.) Fusion 360 does sound like a very clunky way to achieve what you need for laser cutting, but if you are used to it you won't want to start on a new learning curve for something else. By way of comparison, I never submit multicolour files to Ed, just black lines for cutting on a visible layer and a single dimension to validate the scale. The job always comes back perfectly. I don't know how much processing (if any) he does to my files, he has never complained about it. Gary The free/personal version does have limitations on some functions and maybe thats what I am experiencing. Autodesk defined the DXF standard back in the days of 2D AutoCad so they must know what they are doing. Doing the beading in 3D does make it easier to define the parts that go around corners and ensure the tabs and slots line up. Once the curves have been definded the 3D CAD will unfold the curved parts into flat patterns for laser cutting. My original request to Ed for the beading was just tab and slot files and with the white lines, even though some did contain BEND and BEND_EXTENT layers, Ed was OK with that. When I included some other jobs I asked what I would need to do for him to 'etch' fold lines and then he told me about yellow for fold and magenta for etch. I then realised I may need to be more specific. Being able to include the colours at the entity level does allow you do decide on a case by case basis even to the level of sying 'ignore this cut", 'etch line here' 'fold cut on this line'. I haven't tried it but I guess you could add some text and rather than have it in red, make it magenta and the word will be etched. It baffles me why there isn't an obvious tool to do all this, which probably means there is but I haven't found it. Pete Well I have learned some more from this Pete. I had no idea we can have fold and etch lines as well! I'm not sure that I could have used them, but I'll stash it away for future reference. What a fantastic tool laser cutting is! Gary
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Post by doubletop on Apr 8, 2022 21:40:24 GMT
I’ve been doing small parts. First the bunker coal hatch. It just required the beading detail attached. I used 2mm square tube from K&S metals, maybe a little bit oversize but it does the job. Attached with solder paste for surface mounting PCB components. Obtained from my local electronics store, Jaycar in my case but Element 14 or Radio Spares for those of you in the UK. Next was the seats and seat brackets copying the method that Gary L used here modeleng.proboards.com/post/197599 Using the drawing in Gary’s post I produced this, note the hole spacing is for the holes already in the bunker in Polly Model kit a rectangle 9/16” x 1 11/16” Seat brackets and backing panels, and coal hatch in place. I tried an old can of etch primer on the seat parts. It needs to be done again. Next was the infill pieces for the tanks. Again, MNC with the DRO's used to cut the outline from some 0.032” sheet from K&S metals. In place The top infill piece is 0.016” sheet also from K&S. The slight upfold to shape it to the boiler barrel is prototypical and helps stiffen the panel. I've also forgotten to show you how I've attached the dummy whistles so that I can remove the cab roof. They should really be fitted to the firebox wrapper but then the stay to the cab couldn't be used so I've installed them with a brass strip at the bottom. I now have the tank, cab and bunker beading, along with some other parts, on order from Ed at MEL Hopefully it will be here within a couple of weeks or so. I now think I will move on to the bunker, the injector water valves and the cross tank I am going to install to feed the inectors. Pete
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