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Post by johnbelfast on Aug 6, 2022 8:29:56 GMT
Hi, I am building a 31/2 gauge Jeanie Deans and am stuck for the paint. I live in Belfast and Phoenix can't post to here so I am wondering if anyone has successfully used a BS colour for an LNWR loco. Or any suggestions as to how to mix the colour. There is a place here that will mix Rustoleum colours and can tweak them a bit. Thanks!
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Post by 92220 on Aug 6, 2022 12:28:56 GMT
Hi.
Ther5re is no standard colour that matches LNWR Blackberry Black. The shade appeared because of the way the LNWR varnished the locos, which were painted with standard carbon black (as was used in those days. It gave a VERY slight redness to the black, under certain lights. If you take a standard Black paint, and using the same manufacturer's Crimson Lake (Similar to Midland Railway Crimson, NOT LMS Crimson, which is lighter) add 6% Crimson to 94% Black, will give you close to what you want. Adjust the quantities to suit your own eye. Under most lights it should just look Black. Under certain lights, very bright sunlight and certain artificial lights, there should be a very subtle redness to the Black. Hope that helps.
Bob.
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jo479
Hi-poster
Simplex, Pricess of Wales, Prairie, N24X, LNWR Jumbo, Jeannie Deans, 7 1/4 Lion
Posts: 184
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Post by jo479 on Aug 6, 2022 18:05:25 GMT
My tin of Phoenix Blackberry Black when opened is Black, when it's on the engine it's black, there's no tint of another colour, all my friends have just used a Gloss Black, if you stand all our engines together my 79 year old eyes can't see any discernible difference, unless you want perfection, just go for a gloss black, if you go on facebook on the LNWR site, there is a picture of my Jeanie Deans in bright sunlight, It just looks Black so I wouldn't worry about it.
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Post by 92220 on Aug 6, 2022 18:18:27 GMT
He wanted to know how to mix LNWR Blackberry Black, so I told him. Using ordinary Black is fine if that is what you want. Anyway, a photo is absolutely no use for comparing colours. The photo will not be accurate, the printing will not be accurate and a co9mputer screen is GUARANTEED to alter the shade too. I did also exp-lain how the "Blackberry Black" came about on the original LNWR livery. The addition of the small amount of Cri8mson, is to give a very slight redish tone under certain lights. I did also say, they used Carbon Black pigments to make the original paint. Which was dead Black. It was the varnishing that gave that faint redish tinge under certain lights. Also, a lot depended on what was used to make up the varnish, which ALWAYS had a faint shade because the paints and varni8shes were made up using natural materials, which could change from batch to batch.
Bob.
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jma1009
Elder Statesman
Posts: 5,896
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Post by jma1009 on Aug 6, 2022 21:13:28 GMT
I am struggling to recall the source of a description of LNWR blackberry black that is vivid in my memory.
It might have been in ME written by FC Hambleton, or JN Maskelyne, or it may have been in an IWMES monthly meeting years ago in a talk by Bert Brock and may have had something to do with Geoff Cashmore of the North London club.
It's a very deep black with a hint of maroon as opposed to Bob's crimson.
It is possible that a red lead primer as opposed to the usual grey with pure black on top would give a hint of this.
That is all I can contribute, unfortunately.
Cheers, Julian
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dscott
Elder Statesman
Posts: 2,437
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Post by dscott on Aug 8, 2022 1:34:28 GMT
I will need two colours of Black for the Nigel Gresley a slightly matt one for the smokebox and the main body and everything else. I must visit Paint Services and ask about getting some spray High Temperature black. Halfords do Matt Black, Red which is lovely and a Blue which I have splashed on the Hacksaw machine from Blackgates.
David and Lily.
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Post by 92220 on Aug 8, 2022 8:05:11 GMT
Hi Julian.
That is a possibility as railway companies almost always used Red Oxide primer, but depending on how concentrated the Black paint was that was used, and how many coats were applied, the primer might or might not, have had an effect of the resultant observed shade. Bear in mind that carbon Black is one of the most dense colours, so 2 coats would almost certainly have masked the primer colour. Carbon Black pigment is still used today, though today's resins, for making up the varnish content, is synthetic and only very light colour, so will have little effect on the final observed shade of Black paint.
Bob.
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Post by johnbelfast on Aug 8, 2022 18:46:54 GMT
Hi , thanks everyone who replied, I'm in touch with a company in the Uk and it looks like I am getting somewhere.
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Post by ettingtonliam on Aug 11, 2022 12:27:42 GMT
I'm not sure about this, but it seems to me that black paint wiped over with an oily cloth gives a bluish tinge to the colour. Presumably LNWR cleaners used some form of cleaning oil on the paint?
Bear in mind that I'm slightly colour blind (I know what colours traffic lights are, but failed the Network Rail eye test, and was only allowed track side if accompanied by someone else)
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Post by Jim on Aug 11, 2022 13:31:27 GMT
I'm not sure about this, but it seems to me that black paint wiped over with an oily cloth gives a bluish tinge to the colour. Presumably LNWR cleaners used some form of cleaning oil on the paint? Bear in mind that I'm slightly colour blind (I know what colours traffic lights are, but failed the Network Rail eye test, and was only allowed track side if accompanied by someone else) Yep I have the same problem which bared me from Signals when I joined the Army Reserves or CMF as it was then. Jim
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jo479
Hi-poster
Simplex, Pricess of Wales, Prairie, N24X, LNWR Jumbo, Jeannie Deans, 7 1/4 Lion
Posts: 184
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Post by jo479 on Aug 11, 2022 17:35:08 GMT
He wanted to know how to mix LNWR Blackberry Black, so I told him. Using ordinary Black is fine if that is what you want. Anyway, a photo is absolutely no use for comparing colours. The photo will not be accurate, the printing will not be accurate and a co9mputer screen is GUARANTEED to alter the shade too. I did also exp-lain how the "Blackberry Black" came about on the original LNWR livery. The addition of the small amount of Cri8mson, is to give a very slight redish tone under certain lights. I did also say, they used Carbon Black pigments to make the original paint. Which was dead Black. It was the varnishing that gave that faint redish tinge under certain lights. Also, a lot depended on what was used to make up the varnish, which ALWAYS had a faint shade because the paints and varni8shes were made up using natural materials, which could change from batch to batch. Bob. I wasn't aware that I was rattling your cage, I think you're taking offence when none was intended
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Post by 92220 on Aug 11, 2022 18:39:06 GMT
Hi jo.
Oh dear! I did give totally the wrong impression. I can assure you I didn't take offence. I thought you had misunderstood the original question so was just trying to clarify that the OP had asked how to mix the colour and I just told him how it was done when I was making Precision Paints, but then added more info about the colour and how it was arrived at. On reflection, perhaps I should have just left it at how to make it, but when it gets to livery colours and how the old paints were made, because I made a study of this, and was actually manufacturing paints for 30 years to represent the old colours, I do tend to expand on a theme, a bit too much!!! Sorry if I gave the impression I was 'p****d'. I wasn't. I just sometimes get over enthusiastic about the subject!!
Bob.
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