Cost of the Hobby

[suctionhose]

Some recent comments elsewhere eluded to the hobby becoming too expensive.

I said my latest traction engine model cost $36 a week to keep me entertained for the last 7 years. I reckon it's still cheap!

TE's are more expensive to make than locos due mainly to the quantities of material (it weighs 1/2 a ton) and the inevitable need to outsource some machining, cert welding, etc.

At around AU$13k outlay it is significant but who more worthy to spend it on than myself??? Is it that males naturally tend to deprive themselves of joy in life?

Model engineering was a 'do it yourself' activity but is it becoming a 'buy expensive parts' activity? You frequently hear the buy-to-save-time trade off. Are people so busy or just getting lazy?

No judgement. Share your thoughts...

[jasonb]

Yes once you have established a workshop the cost per week or hour is quite low compared with other hobbies. Even then most will require some outlay for equipment such as a set of golf clubs or bicycle and you can by a lot of equipment for what a bike can cost these days.

Scale will also affect costings, you could spend a similar amount of time building a smaller TE which would bring the weekly cost down

Moving over to fabrication or cutting from solid will often save money as it is cheaper than buying castings with all their possible problems and if it takes a bit longer to make from scratch then that £/week figure becomes even better. I've done a couple of engines recently based on popular Stuart designs and they have cost me half what a set of theirs would.

As for the last comment it comes down to the individual, some want to get onto the track or rally field as soon as possible so will outsource parts, buy a machined kit or a second hand engine. Others like myself enjoy the making more than the running, most of my engines after an initial run to prove to myself that they work will get very little running after that and just sit on the shelf. Same applied to the actual subject some will build to plans others will spend years getting it as true to scale as possible. Then there are those that get drawn into restoring old machines and making tooling who may never get that model finished. Just comes down to different people wanting different things from the hobby

[Jo]

Jan 5, 2023 2:24:36 GMT suctionhose said:

At around AU$13k outlay it is significant but who more worthy to spend it on than myself??? Is it that males naturally tend to deprive themselves of joy in life?

I can confirm that people naturally tend to spend lots of money on themselves. Some women spend a fortune on hair dos, clothes, manicures etc but men tend to buy gadgets and have expensive hobbies. I am not sure if kids are counted as a male or female hobby but they are also expensive 

Jo

[springcrocus]

Jan 5, 2023 7:31:09 GMT Jo said:

I can confirm that people naturally tend to spend lots of money on themselves. Some women spend a fortune on hair dos, clothes, manicures etc but men tend to buy gadgets and have expensive hobbies. I am not sure if kids are counted as a male or female hobby but they are also expensive 

Jo

I can confirm the first half of the second sentence in Jo's post. As regards children, I think they are an unwanted by-product of an interesting hobby, a bit like swarf.

Regards, Steve

[firebird]

Hi

On my first loco build, Conway, which was a giant leap forward from the little stationary engines I had built I decided beforehand that I would have to fabricate most of it myself. Looking at the price of castings etc I realised I simply could not afford it. Bearing in mind that was 5 or 6 years ago and prices have shot up astronomically since then. The cylinders I hacked out of solid lumps of iron. Axle pumps, motion, brakes etc etc were all fabricated from bar stock. I had to learn how to make piston rings, silver solder, weld, turn, drill, file, cut etc but that's what this hobby is all about. The challenge of figuring out how to make something. When it came to the boiler, that was a real challenge. At the time a commercial boiler was in the region of £2000 with a 18 month waiting list so the only option was to do it myself. Eventually I managed it. There were a couple of frustrating months chasing leaks but eventually it passed its tests and I now have a running steam loco. I have since built the boiler for Chub my current loco build and I have the materials ready for my next build a 5''gauge Sweetpea. I think for some time that's the way this hobby will have to go, fabricate it yourself.

Cheers

Rich

[simplyloco]

Jan 5, 2023 2:24:36 GMT suctionhose said:

Some recent comments elsewhere eluded to the hobby becoming too expensive.

SNIP
Are people so busy or just getting lazy?

No judgement. Share your thoughts...

May I suggest that given the lack of engineering capacity/expertise in this country - apart from F1 and aerospace - ability has a great deal to do with it?
BTW, my hobby costs me nothing. In fact, mainly because I am unsentimental, I usually make a healthy profit...
John

[Jo]

More seriously: I think that for the younger generation life has become too expensive.

Most Model Engineers own their own houses so can do what they want on their own grounds including having a workshop. A majority of the youngsters are struggling to afford rent let alone their own house. The new build houses are not designed around hobbies that need much space and the garages are needed for hoarding stuff so are not available for workshop.

Relatively the requirements of our hobby: machine tools and castings, are cheaper today than they have ever been. The other expensive requirement is time and youngsters are also short of that

Jo

[firebird]

Some good points there.

I'm retired now and so is my wife.

We sat and mused as to whether or not we could afford to buy our house now if we were in the same jobs.

Simple answer no. we couldn't get anywhere near affording what we have.

How the youngsters of today will ever get the same I don't know

Cheers

Rich

[dalboy]

Having just set up a workshop for metal work the outlay to start with is expensive I did buy the machines and some of the larger priced item to start with now that I have these I only need to buy consumables and the odd piece of equipment as needed. Running costs for me don't seem to be very much per day working in the workshop as not all of the time machines are running. I think if you add up all that is needed in consumables over a period of time yes it does seem expensive.
One of the things I find that drives up the price is what some companies charge for P & P where an item will fit in a jiffy bag yet they will charge a minimum of £10+ P & P. Some companies are just great and ship free of charge even for a small item.
I get great pleasure when working in the workshop either woodworking or metalworking so in my eyes well worth some of the expense

[jem]

A model engineers workshop is perhaps not just for those who like to make model? I have never made a model, and probably never will, but I spend a huge amount of time in my workshop, and would be lost without it. The profitable part of the workshop is being able to repair and make things for the home. I built my own house, which saved a fortune, and I was also able to do all the pluming , electrical installation and central heating, this certainly paid for all my workshop equipment, and justified buying it. I do understand that it is more difficult for first time buyers today, but this is partly their fault, as they have to have all mod cons, and those who get married , a very expensive wedding, when I started, it was a second hand fridge, which I had to learn to repair, boxes for furniture, until I made my own, and the charity shop. Modern garages make good workshops, as you certainly cannot get a car into them!!

best wishes to all model engineers

Jem

[dscott]

17 years ado we got married, and back then was £37 with my Dear Brother giving £100 for food.
This is why I seem to have money for lumps of metal and machines.
Cars will go into modern garages as long as it is a hatchback and you can get out the back... So we don't bother.

Parts for projects have been got as and when over the years, but the 16% upwards prices from one of my favourites came as a shock.
They could have waited until I had gathered all the bits on the latest.

However battery drills have come down in price so that the Drill/driver 0-4-0 is mow cheaper to build, just.
Much admired by Martin Evans.

David and Lily.

[David]

It's obviously dictated by passion and circumstance. Plenty of people will do what it takes to make their next model.

I'm 51, in more debt than I've ever been, and am supporting 6 people on a single income. My parents are gone and whatever I got from them has either already gone into this hobby in ill-conceived purchases, or mostly on the mortgage. The last of my children won't be thinking of moving out until I'm about 60, and it doesn't look like any of them are in much of a hurry yet. Teenagers are expensive! So are wives. We basically run out of money between pay cheques, and the mortgage, groceries, and energy are only going up for the forseeable future.

I don't see my earnings going up appreciably. In fact for years I was taking effective pay cuts because Very Large Corp doesn't give pay rises to people who actually do anything useful, and then I took an actual (large) pay cut to get a job I liked and stop wanting to kill myself. I dropped out of the management chain and stayed 'on the coal face' of software development because that's what I'm good at and it's what I enjoy, but it doesn't pay enough for all that unless you get a job in a FAANG company which is (a) difficult to get, (b) horrible and (c) there is a blood bath in those companies right now to the tune of 60,000+ people losing their jobs after the companies went on hiring frenzies during the past couple of years and now life is going back to normal people are not spending all their time on that stuff - a good thing! I don't feel sorry for any of them, I think a good start would be carpet bombing Silicon Valley into glass and then moving the bombers onto Austin, TX...

If I did have the burning desire to build another loco, like some NSW modellers I have no interest in building either free-lance or overseas prototypes which means I'm not buying half-finished LBSC or Martin Evans designs. It is possible down here to buy those unfinished projects and finish them - a club member has a couple of on the go at present but I don't know if he wants to sell them afterwards. And it's certainly enough to keep you occupied, undoing all the butchery the last guy put in that you'd never have done :)

Also consider the hobby here in Australia is orders of magnitude smaller in raw numbers of participants than in the UK or the US and other than NZ we're as far from where stuff is actually made as you can be so while E&J Winter do a sterling job in sourcing and supplying stuff there's nothing they can do about the extraordinary freight charges or rising material prices which makes some things down here completely bonkers prices. Trying to find any foundry to make iron castings who won't rip you off and will do even a passable job also seems tricky.

Material is going up in unbelievable ways, and I cannot imagine it will ever get cheaper again. Perhaps steel (Briggs) boilers will see a surge in popularity down here.

Smaller scales such as G1 look doable because the boilers are a few pieces of copper pipe from a big box store and maybe the barrel from an actual plumbing supplier, and the bodywork is thin stuff. Because I have the machinery I could make wheels myself if so inclined to avoid castings.

Affordable 3D printers and cheap or free software are a boon too, even for the larger scales. I feel like a mug having cut various tender axleboxes from expensive chunks of brass when 3D printing would have been the much smarter way to go even if it needs some cast iron or steel backing in places. As the printers get better there is so much on a loco that could be done that way depending on whether it suits your tastes. I don't have one but I can see the benefit, and think there are cost savings to be had there. I can see various bits sitting in front of me that could have been printed with a good quality printer. I think a good printer might be a better use of money than a CNC machine these days.

There is still a lot of enthusiasm down here for the hobby - it's certainly not going anywhere despite the costs and there's lots of people in their 20s and 30s around. Some of them are doing magnificent engineering and nothing will stop them. My father-in-law is a compulsive builder, and I cannot imagine anything stopping him from the next project other than not being able to crawl out to his workshop. There are plenty of people like Shawki & Barry who love this hobby so much and inspire others to keep going.

BTW, you may think it is stupid I bought a coffee machine if things are so tight. I do too, but after giving 20 years of long service leave and most of my inheritance to the mortgage I decided $650 AU (about 3 pounds UK) was justified for a 14 months belated 50th birthday present. It is the cheapest coffee machine you can buy that actually has a chance of making coffee and lasting longer than 18 months! I felt I deserved at least that much, but it took me that long to convince myself to do it.

[lesstoneuk]

On my class 76, I've paid around £70 for lazer cutting, £80 for 4x120w motors, £45 steel angle, £70 laser cut plywood, £50 arc welder, £75 drill press, £120 wheels and axles.
For my Sentinel, £680 chassis, £25 plywood, £30 sundries.
Cheaper than steam

[suctionhose]

I must acknowledge my parents for sponsoring my interests from Mamods at a young age to full size at one point and workshop facilities until I had my own. I was certainly fortunate that Dad was a live steamer and a patient and excellent teacher for me. In my day there were many charitable people who generously gave of their time and resources to support me and for that I am forever indebted. There's no reason why we, as older folk, cannot pay it forward to help a younger person with an obsession on their way.

I've had 6 workshops. Machines have come and gone as opportunity has come and gone. There's is a clear choice between buying a mill or paying the rent. You do need to struggle to get it but once critical mass is reached the cost of a model is just the model itself.

I quoted $36 a week for 7 years sustenance. I bought lunch for myself and two teens today. Cost $48 and sustained them for 4 hours!

I certainly recognise the world has changed. My Bro in Law, aged 45 has lived in 4 countries following his job opportunities. Today's generation is short of space, lacking roots, distracted - no, satisfied with online entertainment (which is beyond saturation point) - all of which has different appeal to life in the 70's.

It's going to an expensive toy to buy a live steamer. I think the cost outweighs the reward by a large factor. The reward always was "to make it yourself". That's why I still foster traditional skills and limited outsourcing. It's the journey not the destination but that's me.

Before Wifi, I don't how 80% of people filled their day. There must have been soo much boredom! Now, teens have information & entertainment 200% of the time. You have push back there's so much. Its like "leave me alone for 5 minutes for God's sake". Not conducive to "how can I fill my time in a productive and satisfying way?"

Anyway, I think the number of odd souls that want to make stuff is on the rise. Artisan everything is finding it's mojo. Those that want it will make the sacrifices and find a way! It does take a certain commitment but anything of value always does!

---

[ettingtonliam]

In a rare moment of sensibility, when I started on my current (and probably last) project, a 7 1/4" gauge model of 'Locomotion' designed by David Piddington (is he still around, he was pretty ill when I last spoke to him about 3 years ago), I bought all of the castings from Reeves, and all of the copper for the boiler (not from Reeves!). This was about 5 years ago, so I'm pretty much working for free at the moment, but in several years time will need things like a pressure gauge, water gauge and several valves, if I don't make my own (not the pressure gauge, thats beyond me).

[Jo]

I did similar over the last 10 years of work before I retired. I acquired around 70 stationary casting sets, the boiler for my 2" ploughing engine and upgraded my machine tools. All of this allowed me to think about making models even if I couldn't as I had to attend work.

Now that I am retired I find I am still short of that rare commodity - time.

Jo

[dalboy]

When I decided to build the Rob Roy I did splurge out and brought all of the castings in one go just in case prices did spiral sky high I also brought a pair of 6" flywheels for a farm boy I was also very fortunate in that I brought some bar end of ali for that project which I managed to get all three of the large pieces from. I keep thinking that I should buy the copper for the boiler while I can

[melaser]

Jan 5, 2023 12:48:01 GMT dalboy said:

Having just set up a workshop for metal work the outlay to start with is expensive I did buy the machines and some of the larger priced item to start with now that I have these I only need to buy consumables and the odd piece of equipment as needed. Running costs for me don't seem to be very much per day working in the workshop as not all of the time machines are running. I think if you add up all that is needed in consumables over a period of time yes it does seem expensive.
One of the things I find that drives up the price is what some companies charge for P & P where an item will fit in a jiffy bag yet they will charge a minimum of £10+ P & P. Some companies are just great and ship free of charge even for a small item.
I get great pleasure when working in the workshop either woodworking or metalworking so in my eyes well worth some of the expense

Shipping is a constant frustration for me, I always send out the cheapest I can, within reason, however there is a caveat.  Standard Royal Fail insurance is £20, if they loose it, I can only claim £20, so if it's a lightweight part that doesn't justify a courier, but it costs me £30 to make, what do you want me to do?  I can either charge you an extra £10 for the part, to cover just incase they loose it, or I send it with the more expensive courier at £7.50 which has an insurance up to £60, and for larger and heavier parcels up to £200.  DHL has just hit us with a £1 per parcel price increase, due to "increasing drivers wages", and we've been paying a 16.75% surcharge since diesel went over £1.50/L, and will continue to be charged it until it comes back under £1.50/L

Shipping is the most misunderstood customer complaint, it's not easy

[dalboy]

Jan 6, 2023 18:02:36 GMT melaser said:

Jan 5, 2023 12:48:01 GMT dalboy said:

Having just set up a workshop for metal work the outlay to start with is expensive I did buy the machines and some of the larger priced item to start with now that I have these I only need to buy consumables and the odd piece of equipment as needed. Running costs for me don't seem to be very much per day working in the workshop as not all of the time machines are running. I think if you add up all that is needed in consumables over a period of time yes it does seem expensive.
One of the things I find that drives up the price is what some companies charge for P & P where an item will fit in a jiffy bag yet they will charge a minimum of £10+ P & P. Some companies are just great and ship free of charge even for a small item.
I get great pleasure when working in the workshop either woodworking or metalworking so in my eyes well worth some of the expense

Shipping is a constant frustration for me, I always send out the cheapest I can, within reason, however there is a caveat.  Standard Royal Fail insurance is £20, if they loose it, I can only claim £20, so if it's a lightweight part that doesn't justify a courier, but it costs me £30 to make, what do you want me to do?  I can either charge you an extra £10 for the part, to cover just incase they loose it, or I send it with the more expensive courier at £7.50 which has an insurance up to £60, and for larger and heavier parcels up to £200.  DHL has just hit us with a £1 per parcel price increase, due to "increasing drivers wages", and we've been paying a 16.75% surcharge since diesel went over £1.50/L, and will continue to be charged it until it comes back under £1.50/L

Shipping is the most misunderstood customer complaint, it's not easy

What I am referring to is a part/tool that is say for example £10 and then being asked to pay the same again for postage in these cases I find somewhere else their loss not mine. These kind of purchases could fit in a jiffy bag. I do not object to larger orders being charged a little more as it then is worth it

[chris vine]

Shipping

Hi Ed,
Yes, shipping is a constant problem for me too. Books are quite bulky but the price is not so high. As a result, the shipping gets to be quite a big part of the price.

For three years now, I have used www.parcel2go.com/quick-quote For using ParcelForce, it is cheaper than going into the post office. However, most of the time I use Evri as they are cheaper. In the run-up to Christmas when the Royal Mail were unreliable, I switched everything, even £2.99 books to Evri. They got every single one to the destination before the big day. What is more amazing is that they were totally overwhelmed because almost every other small business was doing the same as me!!

I had several emails telling me that Evri were hopeless, but my experience has been very good. Yes, they do occasionally lose things, but I usually get the shipping cost back.

Maybe worth a try for you?

Chris.